RonG Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Hi All, I'm a new forum member, and I joined to ask a specific question: I was given a plaster cast of a dinosaur claw by my late grandfather when I was a small child, along with a chunk of fossilized bone from some Ceratopsid that was not a triceratops. As ~8 year old me kept very poor records, I do not remember the identity of either of these. The bone is probably a lost cause, it's a chunk of dinosaur knee bone, no way that I am aware of to tell the identity. The claw, on the other hand, might be identifiable. It's not a great reproduction, but it has sentimental value and I would like any input on its identity. If I recall, it was the toe claw of some sort of raptor, and for some reason I have utahraptor in my head. That said, it looks like it could easily be something else, and looks pretty similar to reproductions of allosaurus claws I've seen online. I've included a ruler for scale, and can provide any additional pictures/information if that'd help. Thanks for your time,-RonG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 Locality and age are always key factors in helping identify material since many claws have similar features. However there are not many theropod dinosaurs with claws of the size of your reproduction. The two that you mention fit that bill and I do not think its Allosaurus. I would lean toward Utahraptor but let's see what others say. Nice sentimental item. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonG Posted October 2, 2014 Author Share Posted October 2, 2014 Well thank you for the input. In your opinion, there's nothing obvious about it that makes NOT utahraptor? So if I vaguely recall being told it was utahraptor, that seems plausible? Are there other large North American raptors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 How long ago was this given to you? Utahraptor was discovered in 1991, so if it is older than that, it would be something else. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 2, 2014 Share Posted October 2, 2014 (edited) Well thank you for the input. In your opinion, there's nothing obvious about it that makes NOT utahraptor? So if I vaguely recall being told it was utahraptor, that seems plausible? Are there other large North American raptors? Another possibility from North America are Therizinosaur's and depending on age the claw evolved from mid-size to very large. Nothronychus was one and could fit your bill but it was described in the early 2000 but still leaning toward utahraptor. . Edited October 2, 2014 by Troodon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonG Posted October 3, 2014 Author Share Posted October 3, 2014 That's an interesting point about utahraptor... I was probably given this in the mid to late 90's, so after the discovery of utahraptor. That said, I was always under the impression he had had it for a while before giving it to me. If it looks like utahraptor, and I vaguely recall it being utahraptor, I think we may have to decree utahraptor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted October 4, 2014 Share Posted October 4, 2014 different views could be helpful. T rex claws for example are very wide, whereas allosaurus claws are much thinner. Can we see pix of the articular surface and from the top? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonG Posted October 5, 2014 Author Share Posted October 5, 2014 (edited) Sure thing!Here's a video, hopefully that will give you a little bit better of an idea of its 3D structure. Edited October 5, 2014 by RonG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Wow what a big fat claw. Based on your video although the side may look like a utahraptor its to fat at the articulation side to be one. So I'm not sure what it belongs to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldigger Posted October 5, 2014 Share Posted October 5, 2014 Something to think about. The "girth" of the claw, depending on how your grandfather made the mold, may have been caused by it being too thin with out much structural support and therefore bulged out as the plaster was poured in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonG Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share Posted October 6, 2014 So, if too thick for utahraptor, and the mold was structurally sound what are the other options? What's large enough?I think my grandfather bought this as surplus from a museum. I keep googling pictures of claws... They all look the same to me. I was hoping maybe there would be a commercially available replica modeled after the same specimen, but no such luck so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonG Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share Posted October 6, 2014 Feel free to literally just throw out dinosaur names that might be the right size. I'll do the follow up research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonG Posted October 6, 2014 Author Share Posted October 6, 2014 Also, if we can't do species, maybe genus or family? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaier Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Also, if we can't do species, maybe genus or family? I'm not a vert person, so I can't help with the ID, but what you state here is the proper procedure for classification. You have to back down the tree to where you know you have the diagnostic points to fit it somewhere. All to often people push it too far, and the classification is "Well, it SHOULD be this..." so that is what they classify it as, without all the diagnostic points to truly put it there. That leads to many things ending up in the wrong bin. So Utahraptor is a genus, with one one known species. Here's his heritage... Kingdom: Animalia Phylum: Chordata Clade: Dinosauria Suborder: Theropoda Family: Dromaeosauridae Clade: Eudromaeosauria Subfamily: Dromaeosaurinae Genus: Utahraptor And T. rex has this lineage... Kingdom: Animalia Phylum: Chordata Clade: Dinosauria Suborder: Theropoda Family: Tyrannosauridae Subfamily: Tyrannosaurinae Tribe: Tyrannosaurini Genus: Tyrannosaurus So that brings us to the common node of Theropoda in the tree. To use an American expression, when you can't drive the classification forward, you have to drop back and try for the punt. If a classification is a "best guess", then put a question mark into the declared name at the place where you begin to lose the diagnostics. This keeps people from extrapolating off your classification and magnifying the error. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 6, 2014 Share Posted October 6, 2014 Take a look on the web at Baryonyx hand claw. Its a dinosaur that is found in the UK and in the Spinosauridae family. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arion Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I guess the real problem here is where was the original from? It's a different story if we're dealing with only NA dinosaurs than if we're dealing with theropods from the whole world as possible candidates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonG Posted October 7, 2014 Author Share Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) Sadly I'm not totally sure where the original was from. I was guessing NA, but that was just a guess based on where I thought my grandfather obtained it. It's certainly the right size for baryonx, but I don't think it is a replica of the famous baryonx claw I see on google images. Edited October 7, 2014 by RonG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arion Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Baryonyx was what came to mind when I saw it, but it's not a replica of the type claw. The condyles are missing on this claw, whereas they're preserved in the Baryonyx type. Still, spinosaurid seems like a reasonable ID, which makes a NA origin less likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonG Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 I looked at claws for a couple hours last night. Basically just wading through names of of the phylogenies on Wikipedia. Spinosauridae is currently my best guess as well, but I'm not well versed enough in my dinosaurs to know if I missed another possibility. The only others that looked remotely right were allosaurus claws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Allosaurus is a whole lot more likely in that there a ton more specimens than spinosaurs. Even more true in your grandpa's day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonG Posted October 8, 2014 Author Share Posted October 8, 2014 A good point. Does this look like it could be allosaurus sized? Allosaurus is one of the dinosaurs I remember knowing about as a kid- It occurs to me now that if it's a species that doesn't sound even vaguely familiar to me its probably not that species. I did at one point know the animal this was modeled after. http://www.prehistoricstore.com/item.php?item=157http://www.dinosaursrocksuperstore.com/v/vspfiles/photos/ClawAllo2-2.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I think you are probably right with Allosaurus. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonG Posted October 9, 2014 Author Share Posted October 9, 2014 Alright. Thanks gang. While I suppose I can never say with 100% certainty, given the lack of available data, that this is an allosaurus, is this a fair enough representation of an allosaurus claw that I could call it allosaurus without misleading people? (As in, there are no features that would preclude allosaurus).Shall we make the final call allosaurus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaier Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Either Theropoda or Allosaurus(?) Allosaurus is a genus, so it should be capitalized. The question mark indicates it is not conclusive. All the guesses seem to be in the suborder Theropoda, so you don't need a question mark for that. Only a species name is lower case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 10, 2014 Share Posted October 10, 2014 Sorry to put a kink in your thinking but I've never seen an Allosaurus claw that thick and have several in my collection. Without a locality you may never have an answer to your question. Let me suggest a call that should get everyone's support and that is you simply call your replica a large Theropod claw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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