Possible Aristotle's Lantern

[gturner333]

I have found many of these at various Pennsylvanian sites in Texas (Jacksboro, Lake Bridgeport)and initially thought that they could be from an echinoid's Aristotle's lantern. But, I haven't seen anything that looks exactly like them. Anyone have a certain ID? Thanks.

[Roz]

To me they look like the echinoid teeth within the lantern. That is some detail kicking out. If they are, I

have never seen ones that nice! I think you have a real treasure there.

I sure hope that is what they are!

[Al Dente]

I don't recognise those as part of an Aristotle's latern. Usually when a piece has a lot of ornamentation like these, it is an exterior part. They do look like echinoderm parts. My guess would be crinoid.

[thair]

I have found ones similar. I have always considered these a part of a crinoid. Part of the begining of the arm coming off the cup. I think i have a small cup with arms with this structure attached. I will look for it.

[thair]

This is what I was talking about pictured here.

[gturner333]

Yeah, Thair, i too have found them at lake sealey close to Brownwood. Any idea what kind of crinoid that may be? I kind of see a resemblance to one of the segments , but would love to see a dead ringer for what i have. I think i'm getting close.

[thair]

Yeah, Thair, i too have found them at lake sealey close to Brownwood. Any idea what kind of crinoid that may be? I kind of see a resemblance to one of the segments , but would love to see a dead ringer for what i have. I think i'm getting close.

I have not come up with an ID yet. This small one is the only articulated specimen that I have come accross that has that feature. Like you, I have found the disarticulated pieces that are similar to yours. Like most of the crinoid stuff in this part of the world there are a lot more pieces than complete ones.

[gturner333]

I have been searching all over for something that looks more similar to what I have found, but without success.

Does anyone think that the rough texture give any clues other than what Al Dente mentioned above about it being an external part?

Since these are relatively common in the Pennsylvanian sites around Brownwood, Jacksboro, and Lake Bridgeport Tx, I would be interested if anyone has seen something like this from another state/country.

If it is crinoidal, is the concensus that it is from the calyx (a plate)?

Thanks for your patience on this.

[Coco]

Hi,

I don't think they are from a sea urchin Aristotle's lantern. I had a look on my recent spécimens and I didn't find any things with this form.

Coco

[gturner333]

Hi, Coco. I now admit that it doesn't look like urchin material, as did the other members. The consensus seems to be that it is crinoidal.

But, I have found many crinoid plates shaped like the similar-looking one in the picture above, but they are different than what is in my original post. See the attached file.

Not sure if it is a clue, but my original pictures have an exterior similar to the spine-like items in the 2nd picture (not the largest echinoid spine).

[erose]

Definitely crinoidal. Someone who knows this stuff fairly well suggested they may be ornamentation/spines from the anal sac/tube. It may take a very detailed search thru The Treatise on Invert. Paleontology, IFNA and a few other references to find a suspect.

[crinoid1]

We get plates like this from the Upper Mississippian. A crinoid called Lanecrinus has primibrachs that resemble those. They are even ornamented kind of like yours.

My specimens are a bit underprepped, but these are two Lanecrinus specimens from the Lower Monteagle. Look where the arms start.

There is a Pennsylvanian crinoid known from Pontiac, IL called Clathrocrinus, which is related to Lanecrinus. That may be a possible genus for your plates.

Hope this helps!

Gabe

[crinoid1]

To add to the post above:

Your crinoid plates are probably plates from Ramulocrinus consectatus.

The species is reported from the Pennsylvanian of Parker County, Texas. I think it was described by

Strimple and Watkins in Carboniferous Crinoids of Texas with Stratigraphic Implications 1969, but I don't

have a copy of that book yet.

Gabe

Edited November 5, 2014 by crinoid1

[grandpa]

On 10/30/2014 at 12:57 PM, thair said:

This is what I was talking about pictured here.

 

@thair, That's the ID I've been looking for.  Do you have a source for the photo or an ID for the crinoid.

Thanks,

Grandpa

[thair]

The source for this photo is it is mine that I found and photographed.  Is that what you are asking? As far as a definitive ID I do not have one.

[thair]

As far as parts of Aristotle' Lantern I have these pieces

[grandpa]

2 hours ago, thair said:

The source for this photo is it is mine that I found and photographed.  Is that what you are asking? As far as a definitive ID I do not have one.

Thank you @thair for the fast response.  Yes that is the info I wanted.  Great catch to see the detail that IDed the fossil.  Also, great picts of the lantern parts.  Thanks again.

[Coco]

Hi,

 

Here are pics of the Aristotle's lantern from a recent sea urchin (Echinometra mathaei).

 

 

 

Coco