Mastodon? bones & tusk.

[tocomabyt]

Hello!

I came across set of tusk&bones, from recent find near Tisza River, Hungary.

I think it could be from Mastodon.

Could exact species be identified from these photos ?

http://tocomabyt.rajce.idnes.cz/kosti/

note: scale on photos is in metric system (cm).

Thank you.

Josef.

[FossilHunter99]

The tusk looks like its from Mammuthus primigenius (woolly mammoth). Beautiful finds!! I live here but I've never found fossils this nice.

Edited November 19, 2015 by FossilHunter99

[tocomabyt]

i was just judging by the size of the bones. they looked too small for a mammoth, to me.

so maybe juvenile mammoth ?

[LordTrilobite]

First bone. Looks like it might be a bovine metatarsal. Or maybe deer.

The second bone from the left might be a rhino tibia but I'm not entirely sure.

The third bone from the left is definitely a rhino femur.

Edited November 19, 2015 by LordTrilobite

[Auspex]

Hello!

I came across set of tusk&bones, from recent find near Tisza River, Hungary.

I think it could be from Mastodon....

The range of the Mastodons was North and South America.

[LordTrilobite]

The range of the Mastodons was North and South America.

We have Mastodons in Europe too.

Edited November 19, 2015 by LordTrilobite

[FossilHunter99]

I didn't know we had mastodons in Europe. I live next to Tisza river but I have no idea where to look for bones.

[tocomabyt]

LordTrilobite:

very interesting info. thank you.

what about the rib, and the tusk ?

i will appreciate anybody's ideas.

[Auspex]

We have Mastodons in Europe too.

Quite so! I had the genus Mammut stuck in my head...

[jpevahouse]

The bone on the upper left in your first photo appears to be a horse metapodial (lower front leg bone). Nice section of tusk. It's easy to tell the difference between mammoth and mastodon by examining the tusk from the back. Mammoth tusk has a distinct cross hatching pattern across the growth rings not see in mastodon tusk.

Edited November 19, 2015 by jpevahouse

[abyssunder]

Welcome to the Forum!

As far as I know only Proboscidean tusks have Schreger lines, which are visible in the transverse section of the tusk in question, so the Wooly Rhino could be excluded. The remaining possibilities from the area of the finds are: the Wooly Mammoth (Mammutus primigenius) and the Mastodon (distantly related to elephant) which also existed in Europe including Romania and became extinct 2-3 MYA and compared to mammoth had shorter legs and longer body with heavy muscles. The Schreger Pattern is a unique and reliable identifier of proboscidean ivory. In a few lines, the difference between extinct and extant proboscideans could be determined measuring the angles of the crossing (clockwise and counterclockwise) schreger lines in the tusk. If the angle average is below 100 degrees then would be from Mammoth,if the angle average is above 100 degrees would be Elephant. Also in Straight tusked Elephants the width of the angles, formed by the crossing of the two groups of lines, progressively increases from the centre to the peripheral area of the section, from 60 to 120 degrees(near the cementum).

To be more precise (in a scientific light with exemplification), I prefer to cite from A reappraisal of the dwarfed mammoth Mammuthus lamarmorai (Major, 1883) from Gonnesa (south-western Sardinia, Italy) - M.R. Palombo,M.P. Ferretti,G.L. Pillola,L. Chiappini

"...According to Fisher et al. (1998), the values of Schreger angles in Mammuthus tusks range from 62 to 105 , with a mean of 87.1 . The values of the ‘outer’ Schreger angles of Mamuthus primigenius,measured by Trapani and Fisher (2003) at the dentine-cementum junction, range from about 70 to 100 , while single maximum values of 115 and 125 were found by Ábelova (2008) close to the dentine-cementum junction, around 0-2 cm from the tusk surface.
In the sample of Mammuthus primigenius (49 tusks) examined by Palombo and Villa (2001, 2007), the values of Schreger outer angles range from 65 to 90 with a mean of 71.2 , while the values of inner Schreger angles range from 33 to 55 , with a mean of 41 ,showing an increase from the center of the tusk to the dentine-cementum junction of about 57%. Similar values characterize the ‘outer’ Schreger angles of M. meridionalis (67-85) and Mammuthus trogontherii (68-77) (Palombo and Villa, 2001, 2007).
In adult individuals of P. antiquus, the Schreger angles near the dentine-cement junction have a width ranging from 107 to 135 ,about 128% more than the width of the angles of the central zone (near the pulpal cavity) (Palombo and Villa, 2007).
In Palaeoloxodon falconeri the Schreger angles range from about 89 to 94 near the pulpal cavity, to 105-108 in the middle, to 130-134 near the dentine-cementum junction, matching the range shown by young palaeoloxodonts (Palombo, 2003).
On the natural, proximal cross-section of the tusk found at the Guardia Pisano hill, the values of the Schreger angles, including those near the dentine-cementum junction, are definitely less than 90 (Fig. 13), as was reported for the inner Schreger angles of M. primigenius, M. meridionalis, and M. trogontherii and are definitely narrower than in extant elephants and fossil palaeoloxodonts (see e.g. Palombo and Villa, 2001, 2007 and references therein).
The range of variability of convex Schreger angles increases from the center of the tusk to the dentine-cementum junction with their average value showing an increase of about 78.8%.
The Schreger pattern of the M.lamarmorai tusk differs from the majority of adult Mammuthus tusks in the low values of the Schreger angles, the marked “V” shape of convex inner and outer angles, and because the Schreger lines show an almost constant bend radius, diverging slightly from the radius of even the section near the dentine-cementum junction as occurs in young individuals and in sections made at the tip of the tusks of adults (Palombo and Villa, 2001; Ábelova, 2008)."

I'm not a specialist in the domain, but based only on the schreger lines that I can see in the picture of the specimen in question (they have acute angles not obtuse angles), I think the tusk could belong to a Mammoth. Fig. 4. Transverse sections of (left) Mammuthus primigenius and (right) Loxodonta africana ivories showing the acute angle Schreger Pattern angles in Mammuthus and obtuse Schreger Pattern angles in Loxodonta. Bar equals 1 cm

Reference:

A reappraisal of the dwarfed mammoth Mammuthus lamarmorai (Major, 1883) from Gonnesa (south-western Sardinia, Italy) - M.R. Palombo,M.P. Ferretti,G.L. Pillola,L. Chiappini http://www.pasmartel.it/attachments/article/29/Mammuthus-Quat.pdf
Straight-tusked elephants in the Middle Pleistocene of northern Latium: Preliminary report on the Ficoncella site (Tarquinia, central Italy) - Daniele Aureli,Antonio Contardi,Biagio Giaccio,Valerio Modesti,Maria Rita Palombo,Roberto Rozzi,Andrea Sposato,Flavia Trucco http://www.researchgate.net/publication/258113157_Straight-tusked_elephants_in_the_Middle_Pleistocene_of_northern_Latium_Preliminary_report_on_the_Ficoncella_site_%28Tarquinia_central_Italy%29
Elephas? Mammuthus? Loxodonta? The question of the true ancestor of the smallest dwarfed elephant of Sicily - Maria Rita Palombo http://www.hetnatuurhistorisch.nl/fileadmin/user_upload/documents-nmr/Publicaties/Deinsea/Deinsea_09/DSA9_020_Palombo_273-291.pdf

THE HISTORY AND SIGNIFICANCE OF THE SCHREGER PATTERN IN PROBOSCIDEAN IVORY CHARACTERIZATION - EDGARD O'NIEL ESPINOZA, & MARY-JACQUE MANN http://cool.conservation-us.org/jaic/articles/jaic32-03-003.html

Edited November 19, 2015 by abyssunder

[Auspex]

...Mammoth tusk has a distinct cross hatching pattern across the growth rings not see in mastodon tusk.

I do not believe that this is true.

[ZiggieCie]

Welcome to the Forum. They are still great finds whatever they are. A Rhino is as good of a find as a Mammoth/Mastadon bone.

[tocomabyt]

i have been browsing here and there for last couple of days.

thank you all fossilforum members for showing me the way where to look !

as for now, i think that the bones could be as follows:

1. Equus sp., metatarsal, metacarpal, or metapodium: first top left.

2. Coelodonta antiquitatis, tibia, second top left.

3. Coelodonta antiquitatis, femur, third top left.

4. rib is still a mystery for me, but i hope it's another Coelodonta piece.

i can see similar spots on tibia and rib.

they look like raw, criss-crossed fibre-like, healed areas.

5. juvenile Mammoth tusk.

judging by the appearance of Schreger lines, and also, Mastodon wouldn't fit the age of other bones.

[LordTrilobite]

Ribs can be really difficult to identify when they are not complete.

The femur is from the left side of the animal btw.

[Shellseeker]

5. juvenile Mammoth tusk.

judging by the appearance of Schreger lines, and also, Mastodon wouldn't fit the age of other bones.

Mastodon tusks indeed have Schreger lines, it is the angle of the intersection in the Schreger lines that differentiates Mammoth from Mastodon.

http://www.bwsmigel.info/geol.115.essays/gemology.ivory.html

Ivory, as defined by most gemologists, is derived from the teeth or tusks of mammals, although some other materials with similar characteristics and appearance have traditionally been given this name. Examples of tooth ivory are less common, and generally limited to: hippo and sperm whale teeth (teeth are defined as dentition which is not visible when the mouth is closed, whereas a tusk protrudes from the closed mouth). Tusks from African and Asian elephants, wild boars, walruses and narwhals as well as extinct mammoths and mastodons have been used throughout history (and pre-history) to produce a range of ornamental and useful objects.

https://www.fws.gov/lab/ivory_natural.php

Polished cross-sections of elephant and mammoth ivory dentine display uniquely characteristic Schreger lines. Schreger lines are commonly referred to as cross-hatchings, engine turnings, or stacked chevrons. Schreger lines can be divided into two categories. The easily seen lines which are closest to the cementum are the outer Schreger lines. The faintly discernable lines found around the tusk nerve or pulp cavities are the inner Schreger lines. The intersections of Schreger lines form angles. These Schreger angles appear in two forms: concave angles and convex angles. Concave angles have slightly concave sides and open to the medial (inner) area of the tusk. Convex angles have somewhat convex sides and open to the lateral (outer) area of the tusk. Outer Schreger angles, both concave and convex, are acute in extinct proboscidea and obtuse in extant proboscidea.

Note the Schreger lines in the middle photo. I have been fortunate enough to find sections of both Mammoth and Mastodon. Congratulations on your Mammoth Tusk find. It is a find of a lifetime.