Calling All Cephalopod Experts! Are these beaks?

[Al Dente]

Here are some photos of the ammonite ryncholite that I have in my collection for comparison to your specimens. This is from the Jurassic (don't have formation info unfortunately) of Cordoba, Spain.

Beak 1.jpgBeak 2.jpgBeak 3.jpg

That's nice. Have you seen a paper titled "Jurassic and Cretaceous Rhyncholites (Cephalopod Jaws) from the North Atlantic Ocean and their European Counterparts" ? It has drawings and IDs of several types of Rhyncholites.

[Ptychodus04]

That's a new one for me. I'll be checking it out.

[GeschWhat]

That's nice. Have you seen a paper titled "Jurassic and Cretaceous Rhyncholites (Cephalopod Jaws) from the North Atlantic Ocean and their European Counterparts" ? It has drawings and IDs of several types of Rhyncholites.

Thank you for posting them. Having the actual name may help as well in my search. I am on my way to pick up some modern squid beaks from a woman at a local seafood store that collects them. I am going to encase them in wax and cut them for comparative purposes. I will post pictures if it works!

[GeschWhat]

Well, I picked up the modern squid beaks. They are too small and brittle to cut. I dyed a few red so that they would show up in the wax when I sliced them. I think the wax is a bust. It crumbles too much when I cut it. I did get a couple "okay" sections that I posted here. I have some in epoxy, but won't have time to cut them until this weekend. After examining them, I'm pretty confident that many of the inclusions are indeed cephalopod rostrums in both the coprolites I posted from the Lower Lias. Once I get some cut, I will post some comparative photos. There are still some odd ball inclusions that have me baffled, but who knows how many different types of creatures were eaten. Thank you all for looking!

[JohnJ]

Lori, it might be a good idea to contact one of the authors, alluded to by Tarquin and 'abyssunder', before going too far down the "cephalopod road". Several comments in this topic indicate the issues with sectional IDs and similarity to other fossils. Like you, researchers used to seeing cephalopod material in Lias matrix could quickly recognize what you're seeing.

[sdsnl]

Well, I picked up the modern squid beaks. They are too small and brittle to cut. I dyed a few red so that they would show up in the wax when I sliced them. I think the wax is a bust. It crumbles too much when I cut it. I did get a couple "okay" sections that I posted here. I have some in epoxy, but won't have time to cut them until this weekend. After examining them, I'm pretty confident that many of the inclusions are indeed cephalopod rostrums in both the coprolites I posted from the Lower Lias. Once I get some cut, I will post some comparative photos. There are still some odd ball inclusions that have me baffled, but who knows how many different types of creatures were eaten. Thank you all for looking!

Did you get enough or still looking for more?

[GeschWhat]

Did you get enough or still looking for more?

I think I have enough...thanks!

[GeschWhat]

Lori, it might be a good idea to contact one of the authors, alluded to by Tarquin and 'abyssunder', before going too far down the "cephalopod road". Several comments in this topic indicate the issues with sectional IDs and similarity to other fossils. Like you, researchers used to seeing cephalopod material in Lias matrix could quickly recognize what you're seeing.

Concurrent with my original post, I contacted a fellow from the London Museum of Natural History whose focus is fish but is knowledgeable about coprolites (he collects them as well as studies them). He hadn't seen anything quite like it. He confirmed that there is a good possibility the inclusions may be from a cephalopod of some sort. He actually seemed kind of excited about the find. I haven't had a chance to fully read the article mentioned but will this weekend. I agree sectional IDs can be problematic, that is why I partially "excavated" some of the inclusions on the backside of the coprolite. The beauty of coprolites (or any fossilized remains related to the digestive system) is that they can aid in the preservation of things that would be otherwise lost in the fossil record. The downside is that they can contain a literal smorgasbord, especially the larger ones.

[abyssunder]

In micro-Onychites exist a high variability of shapes even within the same specimen.

For example, Garassino & Donovan (2000, p.1027) recognised four individual types of micro-Onychites hooks present along the arms of the holotype of Ostenoteuthis siroi Garassino & Donovan; each type theoretically has the potential of being named as a form taxon. At one end of the variation spectrum some of the small hooks have an almost flattened shape, whereas at the opposite end of the spectrum some hooks have a sickle-like (falcate) shape (e.g. Garassino & Donovan 2000, table 2).
Here is a selection of falcate micro-Onychites described in the literature and illustrated in Palaeobiological and morphological aspects of Jurassic Onychites cephalopod hooks and new records from the New Zealand Jurassic.pdf

[abyssunder]

Also here are reconstructions of the cephalopod beaks from Nusplingen, pictured in First record of a belemnite preserved with beaks, arms and ink sac from the Nusplingen Lithographic Limestone.pdf

[GeschWhat]

Lori, it might be a good idea to contact one of the authors, alluded to by Tarquin and 'abyssunder', before going too far down the "cephalopod road". Several comments in this topic indicate the issues with sectional IDs and similarity to other fossils. Like you, researchers used to seeing cephalopod material in Lias matrix could quickly recognize what you're seeing.

I am SUPER excited! I contacted one of the authors regarding the smaller specimen (not the one I initially posted), since I felt that one may have hooks as well as a beak. He felt some of the inclusions were likely fish, but some he couldn't definitively rule out as cephalopod. He suggested a micro CT scan. What is SUPER exciting is that I heard back from the University of Minnesota today and they have agreed to try to scan this and a few other coprolite specimens. Life is good!

[old bones]

That is exciting, Lori. I look forward to seeing what you find out!

[squali]

Great news looking forward

[fifbrindacier]

You have made a very nice find !

[GeschWhat]

I just got back from the X-ray Computed Tomography Lab at the University of Minnesota. It turns out the coprolite I originally posted in this thread is too large/dense at its widest point for a micro CT scan. I may have to cut it in smaller sections in order to get a scan. However, a somewhat smaller specimen that may have cephalopod remains looked promising in the preliminary scan. It will be a couple of weeks before I get the actual results.

[GeschWhat]

Here is a photo of the actual coprolite from the preliminary scan.