Mediospirifer Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 I was looking through a bunch of Thylacocrinus stem pieces looking for interesting encrusters for tradebait, and ran across something I didn't notice before. These photos are of 2 different stem pieces: My first thought was Constellaria, but (to my knowledge) that only occurs in the Ordovician, and is much larger. These are Middle Devonian (Kashong Fm.), and the whole image is less than 1 cm across, probably around 6 mm (I didn't have a measure handy). Anyone have any thoughts? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 (edited) Might be algal thalli,or stromatoporoid mamelons Edited July 22, 2016 by doushantuo 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 (edited) These ecrusters of crinoid columnals are epibionts. They are so called "ctenostome bryozoans". The first one (visible on the surface of the crinoid stem in the first picture) could be Ascodyction vinelliforme (Fig. 3F and 4D) or close to this ; while the second one (on the surface of de second stem) might be Eliasopora stellata (Fig. 3C). Epibionts on upper Eifelian crinoid columnals from the Holy Cross Mountains, Poland.pdf Fig.3 Fig.4 P.S. : Why don't you posted it in the Fossil ID section ? Edited July 22, 2016 by abyssunder 10 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 I thought the stellate pattern i seem to see is inconsistent with ctenostome boring activity 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Brightened the pics a bit: 2 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM - APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TqB Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 I think Abyssunder is right and that the stellate vesicles belong to the ctenostome Eliasopora stellata. This figure from the first edition bryozoan Treatise shows it well. Furthermore, it lists it as occurring in the New York Devonian. 5 Tarquin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Moved to Fossil ID forum. Excellent work, Abyssunder and Tarquin! Well done. Regards, Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM - APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamalama Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Yup, I agree with Abyssunder and TqB, that is Eliasopora stellata. I've seen that on specimens from the Silica shale before but usually on Brachs. 2 -Dave __________________________________________________ Geologists on the whole are inconsistent drivers. When a roadcut presents itself, they tend to lurch and weave. To them, the roadcut is a portal, a fragment of a regional story, a proscenium arch that leads their imaginations into the earth and through the surrounding terrain. - John McPheeIf I'm going to drive safely, I can't do geology. - John McPheeCheck out my Blog for more fossils I've found: http://viewsofthemahantango.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 (edited) Reinterpretation of Eliasopora provides a basis for the recognition of a new group of extinct Palaeozoic organisms, defined by a combination of morphological features including the presence of a thread-like network of perforate branching filaments, perforate vesicles formed by swollen tips of the filaments, and the ability of filaments to fuse. E.Olempska, Ctenostome bryozoans are soft-bodied, but the ascodictyid vesicles and filaments have calcified walls. also: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264237169_The_morphology_and_affinities_of_Allonema_and_Ascodictyon_two_abundant_Palaeozoic_encrusters_commonly_misattributed_to_the_ctenostome_bryozoans Now,are we all agreed Paul Taylor knows a bit about Bryozoa? To be fair,I learned of this AFTER my 11.57. post. Edited July 22, 2016 by doushantuo 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TqB Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Reinterpretation of Eliasopora provides a basis for the recognition of a new group of extinct Palaeozoic organisms, defined by a combination of morphological features including the presence of a thread-like network of perforate branching filaments, perforate vesicles formed by swollen tips of the filaments, and the ability of filaments to fuse. E.Olempska, Ctenostome bryozoans are soft-bodied, but the ascodictyid vesicles and filaments have calcified walls. also: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/264237169_The_morphology_and_affinities_of_Allonema_and_Ascodictyon_two_abundant_Palaeozoic_encrusters_commonly_misattributed_to_the_ctenostome_bryozoans Now,are we all agreed Paul Taylor knows a bit about Bryozoa? To be fair,I learned of this AFTER my 11.57. post. Excellent! I love a nice incertae sedis. Tarquin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mediospirifer Posted July 22, 2016 Author Share Posted July 22, 2016 (edited) Thanks, folks! I appreciate the time and references. I'll have to read them in detail after work. I have seen bumps like the ones on specimen 3G in Abyssunder's first figure, so now I'll have to dig in and see what they are, too! It's truly fascinating to see so many different species of epibionts, especially when there are 4 or 5 on one 1/2" long crinoid columnal! I have a few with Hederella, Cornulites, Palaeoconchus, and Ascodictyon (or an as-yet-unidentified bryozoan) all in one specimen. Multiple fossils are cool! Life on the small scale can be amazing. Excellent! I love a nice incertae sedis. Me, too! Edit: I just wanted to answer the question of why I posted this in "Micro-paleontology" instead of "Fossil ID". Given that these are microscopic, I thought it was appropriate. Edited July 22, 2016 by Mediospirifer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 Thank you :- for the thread and your answer, Mediospirifer.- for the reference at #9, doushantuo.- for the confirmation of Eliasopora stellata, Tarquin, Dave.- for moving the post to the Fossil ID section, Tim.- all for the appreciations.Good Team Work ! " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted July 22, 2016 Share Posted July 22, 2016 (edited) more on ALLONEMA: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/260292129_The_Paleozoic_problematica_Wetheredella_and_Allonema_are_two_aspects_of_the_same_organism the totally free acces Czech Bulletin,etc ,has an article by Jarochowska on the use of biometry in unravelling the mysteries of Allonema. Edited July 22, 2016 by doushantuo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brach3 Posted January 20, 2020 Share Posted January 20, 2020 It looks like Ascodictyon sp. ("unknown erect organism" / Microproblematica). Paul Taylor argues that Allonema sp. is synonym for Ascodictyon sp., his colleagues Emilia Jarochowska, Axel Munnecke argue that and Wetheredella sp. is synonym for Allonema sp. and so on... See for more: "Mark A. WILSON1* & Paul D. TAYLOR2, The morphology and affinities of Allonema and Ascodictyon, two abundant Palaeozoic encrusters commonly misattributed to the ctenostome bryozoans, 2014" PDF Affinities of Palaeozoic encrusting ascodictyid ‘pseudobryozoans’ Ewa Olempska* and ºukasz Rakowicz, 2014 link (see there are difference between Eliasopora sp.) MARIA KIEPURA DEVONIAN BRYOZOANS OF THE HOLY CROSS MOUNTAINS, POLAND PART 1. CTENOSTOMATA, 1965 PDF Epibionts on upper Eifelian crinoid columnals from the Holy Cross Mountains, Poland EDWARD GŁUCHOWSKI, 2005 PDF Sparks, D.K., R.D. Hoare and R.V. Kesling (1980). Epizoans on the Brachiopod Paraspirifer bownockeri (Stewart) from the Middle Devonian of Ohio. Papers on Paleontology, Number 23. Sometimes "The species (Ascodyction sp., red circle) is thus very much like Eliasopora stellatum except that the vesicles are smaller and more elongate." (see pl 17 №5), another are Eliasopora sp. We've found 2 brachiopods in different places (D3) with 3 "empty" Ascodictyon sp. On 22.07.2016 at 11:38 AM, doushantuo said: Might be algal thalli,or stromatoporoid mamelons doushantuo, do you have examples (specimens) "algal thalli" on the brachiopods from Devon? It's very interesting to see them. @doushantuo @Mediospirifer @Shamalama @Al Tahan @TqB @Fossildude19 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 algal thalli are very prone to disaggregation and micritization. The encrusting/epilithic habit in algae is(I think)predominatly rhodophycean(corallinean) edit:AFTER the respinse below My bad: corallinacean 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brach3 Posted January 21, 2020 Share Posted January 21, 2020 7 hours ago, doushantuo said: algal thalli are very prone to disaggregation and micritization. Yes, I have some problematic (size 1-5 mm on the brachiopods from D3 Russia). We can see yellow powder/dust (disaggregation and micritization ("degradation neomorphism")) Can it be the encrusting habit of algae? I see some similarity/sameness/commonality with Rhodophyceae (red algae) On your opinion can it be an algae? Or I can't translate, what is this "rhodophycean(corallinean)" ?(link) @Mediospirifer @Shamalama @Al Tahan @Fossildude19 @doushantuo 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brach3 Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 @doushantuo, thank you very-very-very much!!! Your key words "corallinacean + disaggregation + micritization" have helped google to find exactly paper (article): Michał Zatońa* & Emilia Jarochowskab, Enigmatic encrusting fossils from the Upper Devonian of Russia: probable Rothpletzella microproblematica preserved in three dimensions, 2018 This article has appeared out of nowhere it's magic For understanding: I have been trying to define these specimens since 2016 year... thank you! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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