Troodon Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Occasionally we see dinosaur material from Portugal for sale, mostly theropod teeth, but I post this because the dinosaurs of the Lourinhã Group are very interesting to those of us that are familiar with the Morrison Formation. Information here may help us identify teeth from the Morisson From an abstract: The Lourinhã and Alcobaça formations (in Portugal), Morrison Formation (in North America) an Tendaguru Beds (in Tanzania) can be compared. These three Late Jurassic areas, dated as Kimmeridgian to Tithonian are similar paleoenvironmentally and faunally. Four dinosaur genera are shared between Portugal and the Morrison (Allosaurus, Torvosaurus, Ceratosaurus and Apatosaurus), as well as all non-avian dinosaur families. Late Jurassic Map Portugal has a high diversity of dinosaurs. The Lourinhã Formation is the most notable unit of the group not only noted for teeth & bones but eggs and trackways. The Alcobaça Formation is also included in the group. Here is a geologic look at westcentral Portugal. The coastline is absolutly beautiful and a challenge to collect. Teeth, tracks and bones are typically found in the boulders making extraction a nightmare. Lourhina Fm.pdf 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 11, 2016 Author Share Posted October 11, 2016 Edited 11/20/17 The large theropods of this region are poorly understood but with new discoveries a clearer picture is beginning to form. Isolated theropod teeth are abundant in this coastline however reliable identification of these teeth is complex since many morphotypes exist in poorly represented groups. Current understanding shows the presence of several groups such as Torvosaurus, Ceratosaurus and Allosaurus and morphotypes belonging to Megalosauroid, Allosauroid, Tyrannosauroid, Dromaeosaurid, and Richardoestesia. Marshosaurus may also be present. So you can understand why its difficult to ID a tooth to a species. Torvosaurus gurneyi ; Megalosaurid indet T. gurneyi is the largest theropod in Europe is known from a maxilla. It's similar to its cousin in the Morrison T. tanneri but appears to be larger. Identification: (a number of morphtypes exist making ID confusing) -Serration Density: both Carinae have an average of 7.5 denticles per 5 mm midline -Mesial denticles are short with rounded or flat ends. -Distal denticles are subquadrangular with rounded ends perpendicular to the carinae -Most have transverse undulations Megalosaurid indet ( Marshosaurus ? ) Identification: -Density: Mesial denticles around 15, Distal denticles 20 per 5mm (all midline) -Distal Carina extends down slightly below the cervix -Mesial Carina extends down to midline Ceratosaurus dentisulcatus; Ceratosaurus sp C. dentisulcatus is a species that is still uncertain, very close to the Morrison's C. nasicornis, will require additional discoveries to confirm if it's a valid taxo Identification: Premaxillary and Mesial Dentary -Vertical grooves and ridges on the lingual side of crowns -Mesial denticles are much smaller than distal ones -Density: Mesial denticles 19 per 5 mm, Distal denticles 11 per 5mm (all midline) Identification : Maxillary and Dentary Teeth -Mesial denticles are short and different than distal one -Density: both Carinae have an average of 14 denticles per 5mm midline -Very compressed crown -Carinae extends down to the cervix and are usually parallel Allosaurus europaeus ? Allosaurid, Allosaurid sp. Similiar to Allosauruids in the Morrison. However with A. europaeus only the back end of the skull was found with only the very posterior tooth so the morphology of the teeth are unknown. Identification: -Density: Mesial denticles Average 12, Distal denticles Average 16.8 per 5mm (all midline) -Mesial carina extends more than two thirds of the crown height. -Mesial carina is centrally located but the distal shows a labial displacement -Denticles are different on both carinae Allosaurid indet. -Density: Both Carinae have about 12 denticles per 5 mm (midline) -Mesial carina ends approximately at midline of the crown height but can extend to cervix. -Crowns are slightly recurved -Mesial denticles are smaller toward the tip than midline Lourinhanosaurus antunesi Was described in 1998 as an Allosauruid but it's uncertain what the family it fits into, current thinking by some place it as an Megalosauroid. No skull material was found in the holotype so the morphology of its teeth is unknown Identification is unknown Abelsaurid indet. In 2014 an isolated Abelisaurid tooth was discovered on the cliffs off of Lourinhã. Additional discoveries will be needed to described this dinosaur. Picture of that that tooth and another is shown. cf Richardoestesia Other theropods material has been found like the following tooth initially identified as cf Richardoestesia but new discoveries will get needed to properly describe it. - Serration Density - 4 and 5 denticles per mm on both carinae. Reference Sources: Hendrickx, C., & Mateus O. (2014). Abelisauridae (Dinosauria: Theropoda) from the Late Jurassic of Portugal and dentition-based phylogeny as a contribution for the identification of isolated theropod teeth. Zootaxa. 3759, 1-74. Mateus, O., Walen A., & Antunes M. T. (2006). The large theropod fauna of the Lourinhã Formation (Portugal) and its similarity to the Morrison Formation, with a description of a new species of Allosaurus. New Mexico Museum of Natural History and Science Bulletin. 36, 123-129 Malafaia,E., Escaso, F. et al (2017) Analysis of diversity and geographical distribution of isolated theropod teeth from upper Jurassic of the Lusitanian Basen, Portugal 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 11, 2016 Author Share Posted October 11, 2016 Herbivores are present: Ornithopods are present described mostly through bones: Draconyx loureiroi (cousin to Camptosaurus) see the last figure5 below item "C" . Dryosaurus, Hypsilophodon and Phyllodon. Sauropods are also represented in this fauna but not fully understood. Zby atlanticus 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guguita2104 Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Very nice and informative topic Troodon...I've to confess I know almost nothing about Portuguese dinosaurs. Lourinhã's formation produces some very nice and big bivalves, however there are some spots where fossil collecting is not allowed (I think ). Regards, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Good stuff as always. It's easy to forget that Europe was so close to America at the time. Makes a lot of sense that there were similar animals on both sides of the pond. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HamptonsDoc Posted October 11, 2016 Share Posted October 11, 2016 Thanks for the info! Do you have anymore info on the eggs from the area? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 11, 2016 Author Share Posted October 11, 2016 (edited) On 10/11/2016 at 1:48 PM, HamptonsDoc said: Thanks for the info! Do you have anymore info on the eggs from the area? I'm not aware of what egg material has been found other than crushed eggs and embryonic material. Sorry nothing available in the open market... Paper on what I mentioned. Very technical http://www.nature.com/articles/srep01924 Edited October 19, 2016 by Troodon Added image from paper Fruitbat recommended 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Susan from PA Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Awesome and very informative post! Thanks so much for sharing! I will no longer complain about digging in heavy clay! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruitbat Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Great post Troodon! HamptonsDoc...try this link LINK TO RESEARCHGATE PAGE for information on Lourinhã dino eggs. -Joe 2 Illigitimati non carborundum Fruitbat's PDF Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vieira Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 Fantastic post Troodon It´s very interesting to see this information about the dinossaurs of my country Very quality in the pictures and information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HamptonsDoc Posted October 12, 2016 Share Posted October 12, 2016 10 hours ago, Fruitbat said: Great post Troodon! HamptonsDoc...try this link LINK TO RESEARCHGATE PAGE for information on Lourinhã dino eggs. -Joe Thanks for the link! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Runner64 Posted October 13, 2016 Share Posted October 13, 2016 I envy the people that are able to hunt here! Not only are the fossils there very unique and cool, but it's also a very pretty location and a nice collecting site. Thanks for sharing Troodon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 14, 2016 Author Share Posted October 14, 2016 Trying to ID teeth from this region can be difficult. The paper I posted of northern German theropods teeth can be helpful since the families and age overlap. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sandgroper Posted October 14, 2016 Share Posted October 14, 2016 Another fascinating thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElToro Posted March 7, 2017 Share Posted March 7, 2017 Yea, it seems hard identifying these fossils. Any ideas about these 3 Portugal Louhrinã teeth? Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanx in advanve! 1 "That belongs in a museum!" - Indiana Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted March 7, 2017 Author Share Posted March 7, 2017 Very difficult to tell much from just tips. You need to see the shape of the crown, serration count and where they are in the carinae to aid in the diagnosis. Sharper pictures, and closer images of your third tooth might help with an ID. Small teeth are very hard to ID not a lot diagnostic about them especially if they are premaxillary teeth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElToro Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Thanx Troodon. My mate is in the process of taking some photos under a lens. She isn't the best at taking photos... However, on the first two teeth the serrations count is 26 and 27 per cm. I do believe the third has 4 serrations along the length. "That belongs in a museum!" - Indiana Jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 Is it legal to collect fossils in Portugal. And export? I ask as a guy who likes to go to Europe every now and then.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 9 hours ago, ElToro said: Thanx Troodon. My mate is in the process of taking some photos under a lens. She isn't the best at taking photos... However, on the first two teeth the serrations count is 26 and 27 per cm. I do believe the third has 4 serrations along the length. Serration count needs to be taken at midline but like I said without the rest of the tooth is difficult to diagnose. That third tooth looks like a Premax but is hard to tell from the photos. If it is they all look the same and there is nothing diagnostic about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted March 8, 2017 Author Share Posted March 8, 2017 9 hours ago, jpc said: Is it legal to collect fossils in Portugal. And export? I ask as a guy who likes to go to Europe every now and then.... I don't think so but it is definitely the case in Spain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johannes Posted March 8, 2017 Share Posted March 8, 2017 It is illegal to export fossils from Spain, but generally specific laws are only applied to dinosaur remains. Same case for Portugal (and authorities are very sensitive to this topic there, from my own experience with older scientific collections incuding single dinosaur bones and teeth, but also with "new" material). Even collecting such material in strata known for dinosaur material is problematic there and can cause in uncomfortable situations for collectors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted November 20, 2017 Author Share Posted November 20, 2017 I've updated the theropod section, second page, to provide more detailed information to help in tooth identification. Isolated teeth from this fauna are very difficult and complex to identify and may be impossible to get down to a species level. The theropod diversity in this fauna is large and poorly understood. Partial teeth or those that do not have reasonably complete serrations on both carinae will be extremely difficult to diagnose. I post this information since it's interesting and the fauna associated with the Lourinha Formation formation is very similar to that of the Morrison Formation. This information should be useful in identifying those teeth or at least getting close since so little is published from the Jurassic of North America. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pixpaleosky Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Thank you very much for this very informative post. Now I would like to go there for my next vacations Have you been to these cliffs by yourself ? Do you know how hard is it to find and to excavate the fossils ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted November 21, 2017 Author Share Posted November 21, 2017 49 minutes ago, Pixpaleosky said: Thank you very much for this very informative post. Now I would like to go there for my next vacations Have you been to these cliffs by yourself ? Do you know how hard is it to find and to excavate the fossils ? No I never collected in this area. It's my understanding that collecting is not easy, the cliffs are dangerous and lot of the finds are encased in boulders that require extraction tools. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hxmendoza Posted May 5, 2018 Share Posted May 5, 2018 Frank, Which paper has these specific illustration in it? I didn’t see these in the three papers you cited. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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