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Warning: Even dealers/websites warning you of false fossils aren't foolproof themselves

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Susan from PA

The best defense against purchasing fakes and misidentified specimens is to educate yourself about the specimens you wish to purchase.   

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BadlandTraveller

I agree but I don't see why calling out specific auction users or web sites that sell fakes is frowned upon in the forum.

 

My opinion is if they sell fakes they deserve to be called out. 

 

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piranha
18 minutes ago, BadlandTraveller said:

I agree but I don't see why calling out specific auction users or web sites that sell fakes is frowned upon in the forum.

My opinion is if they sell fakes they deserve to be called out. 

 

 

That could lead to possible litigation. Imagine it's your item and the reputation of your business is at stake. 

There are many examples at TFF over the years where the cries of "fake" have been shown to be false.

 

 

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Susan from PA
18 minutes ago, BadlandTraveller said:

I agree but I don't see why calling out specific auction users or web sites that sell fakes is frowned upon in the forum.

 

My opinion is if they sell fakes they deserve to be called out. 

 

Sellers cannot be called out due to legal ramifications from doing so.  I agree that it would be nice if it could be done, but it can't.  

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FossilDAWG
1 hour ago, BadlandTraveller said:

I agree but I don't see why calling out specific auction users or web sites that sell fakes is frowned upon in the forum.

 

My opinion is if they sell fakes they deserve to be called out. 

 

Piranha and Susan have explained the policy correctly.  A better strategy than "calling out" individual sellers, and one more in keeping with the intent of this Forum, would be to educate readers about what to look for when judging whether or not a specimen is likely to be authentic.  Education provides the best protection against being deceived.

 

Don

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jpc
3 hours ago, Susan from PA said:

The best defense against purchasing fakes and misidentified specimens is to educate yourself about the specimens you wish to purchase.   

...or collect it yourself when possible.  

 

 

 

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caterpillar

Yes JP. Collect your own fossils is the best solution

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JohnJ
2 hours ago, Troodon said:

...their concern is with the forums health

 

:)  Without this forum, huge amounts of information about fossils (dinosaur and otherwise) would not be as readily available to collectors around the world in a congenial format.  To have the forum wiped out by lawsuits because someone wants a venue (where they bear no financial liability) to subjectively identify "bad sellers" is a short sighted perspective. 

 

Anyone could set up their own website and call out sellers for their poor business practices...but they had better have "deep pockets" in the litigious times we live in.  ;)

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Troodon
25 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

 

:)  Without this forum, huge amounts of information about fossils (dinosaur and otherwise) would not be as readily available to collectors around the world in a congenial format.  To have the forum wiped out by lawsuits because someone wants a venue (where they bear no financial liability) to subjectively identify "bad sellers" is a short sighted perspective. 

 

Anyone could set up their own website and call out sellers for their poor business practices...but they had better have "deep pockets" in the litigious times we live in.  ;)

 

Your comment just takes a negative approach which I am not fostering and does not provide any direction on improving information to its members on dinosaur identification.    Why don't we have pinned topics on dinosaurs.  Why is so difficult to search specific topic...   You want to educate members so provide them better tools to do so.

 

 

 

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JohnJ
2 minutes ago, Troodon said:

 

Your comment just takes a negative approach which I am not fostering and does not provide any direction on improving information to its members on dinosaur identification.    Why don't we have pinned topics on dinosaurs.  Why is so difficult to search specific topic... 

 

 

My comment is not negative, but it addresses the issues raised in this topic and the hard realities of maintaining a forum on the web.  There are other types of fossils not easily accessible to collectors too.  Not all have their own specific forum or Pinned topics. 

 

We try to do our best.  :) 

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FossilDAWG

I don't think it's "negative" to attempt to defend against liability issues when we are the ones exposed to risk as a result of other people's actions.

 

Certainly there is a lot of interest in dinosaurs, and I know you and others have provided much useful information in your posts.  If you could provide me with a not-very-long list of what you think were the more useful posts, I could try to help organize it to be more accessible to forum users.

 

By the way, sometimes "education" means informing people about the limits to what they might reasonably expect to achieve in the way of an ID.  I agree most collectors want to be able to put a species name on the label, somehow that seems to be even more important to some than accurate locality or stratigraphy data.  Explaining why an ID is impossible beyond, say, the family level for an isolated tooth, would be a useful contribution.

 

Don

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FossilDAWG
4 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

A search on the Forum of "Dinosaur teeth identification"  came up with 35 results, ... over half of which were your tremendous Threads and posts on this topic, Frank. 

 

I did search kem kem beds, and it did come up with lots of extraneous posts that only mentioned "beds". :(  3140 results  (126 pages worth).

 

If, however, ... you use quotes " "  around the words "Kem Kem Beds"  your results are much more filtered to those words alone. 164 results. (7 pages worth) 

This is where those tags  that are required are put to good use. ;) 

An added step to posting, but helpful in the end.

 

The forum search engine, like all computer related things, information that comes out is only as good as the information put into it. 

 

This may not be obvious to all, but perhaps I can come up with something to post in the help and discussions forum as a quick reference to searching the forum. :) 


Regards, 

 

I wonder if we could create "pinned" searches, in other words set up a search with the most useful key words and make it a link so when users clicked on it, it would run and retrieve all the relevant posts.  The advantage would be that it would remove the need to update a fixed list of links, which would only be current to the date the list was made.  On the other hand, most of the posts any search would retrieve would be of limited use, so it would be good to also have a short list of "greatest hits", i.e. especially informative posts.

 

Don

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Fossildude19
12 minutes ago, FossilDAWG said:

I wonder if we could create "pinned" searches, in other words set up a search with the most useful key words and make it a link so when users clicked on it, it would run and retrieve all the relevant posts.  The advantage would be that it would remove the need to update a fixed list of links, which would only be current to the date the list was made.  On the other hand, most of the posts any search would retrieve would be of limited use, so it would be good to also have a short list of "greatest hits", i.e. especially informative posts.

 

Don

 

I just tried to create a link to a search, and it worked fine.    "Kem Kem Beds"

Sounds like something the admins/mods should discuss. :)

I like the idea. 

 

 

 

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Troodon
23 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

 

My comment is not negative, but it addresses the issues raised in this topic and the hard realities of maintaining a forum on the web.  There are other types of fossils not easily accessible to collectors too.  Not all have their own specific forum or Pinned topics. 

 

We try to do our best.  :) 

 

Your comment about my simply statement is negative because my comment is true and completely taken out of context.   Not sure why you all have to defend a position which I don't like but agree with and ignore all my other comments.  I'm trying to fix a problem and that is scamming a large number of members and guests that are reading these posts that the forum has not addressed.   The normal process is not that effective.  If you can get by that one comment and read the rest of my post you see that the dinosaur collecting community has a serious problem, FRAUD, intentional or not it's there and big money is involved.   So as a forum, I believe, we should treat this area a little different than most other areas without jeopardizing the forum.   

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Troodon
28 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

A search on the Forum of "Dinosaur teeth identification"  came up with 35 results, ... over half of which were your tremendous Threads and posts on this topic, Frank. 

 

I did search kem kem beds, and it did come up with lots of extraneous posts that only mentioned "beds". :(  3140 results  (126 pages worth).

 

If, however, ... you use quotes " "  around the words "Kem Kem Beds"  your results are much more filtered to those words alone. 164 results. (7 pages worth) 

This is where those tags  that are required are put to good use. ;) 

An added step to posting, but helpful in the end.

 

The forum search engine, like all computer related things, information that comes out is only as good as the information put into it. 

 

This may not be obvious to all, but perhaps I can come up with something to post in the help and discussions forum as a quick reference to searching the forum. :) 


Regards, 

 

 

The problem is that most experienced members or collectors can navigate through the search process but a newbie to collecting may not even know what to ask for or even that there is some reference information available.   Tools that are easily accessible are those that will be used and have the best long term results 

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-Andy-
4 minutes ago, Troodon said:

 

The problem is that most experienced members or collectors can navigate through the search process but a newbie to collecting may not even know what to ask for or even that there is some reference information available.   Tools that are easily accessible are those that will be used and have the best long term results 

 

I agree with Frank on this part.

 

I know exactly what to search for before purchasing anything, but new collectors don't. Perhaps a list of stickied guides, or even a 'Fossil Guide'(or something) link on the toolbar along side Collections, Gallery, Maps etc might help.

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Susan from PA

If we could have @Troodon's "My Jurassic Park" posts pinned, that would go an incredibly long way into helping dinosaur collectors.  

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Troodon

Thanks, all I can ask for is a discussion on this matter.  Be glad to help

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Wrangellian

It's been said already but I'll say it again: It's not just dinosaurs. We invert collectors have to caveat also, and we can't always personally collect what we're interested in. I don't have access to much Paleozoic stuff where I live. Luckily inverts are not as often faked unless you're looking at flashy Moroccan stuff.

 

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Troodon
On 2/16/2017 at 10:08 AM, Fossildude19 said:

This is something that will have to be discussed among the moderating and admin teams. :) 

Nothing can be done for a few days at least, as Cris doesn't have access to a computer for a bit.

 

While I agree the quality of Franks posts is exeptionally well presented and helpful, one of my thoughts, however, ... is just how far do we go with this? :unsure: 

I mean, ...  as I see it, we are a Fossil Forum, first and foremost, not just a Dinosaur forum.

Should we then also have stickied guides to all different fossil categories?

One for shark teeth,  one for crabs,  one for Trilobites, ammonites,...inverts, plants, mammals, etc. etc. etc?  It could get out of hand pretty quickly.


We already have an area specifically to point out and educate folks about fake and potentially fake fossils.  

This has been a very helpful addition to the Forum in my opinion, as it gives us a venue to educate people about the fossils they are looking to buy. :) 

 

But how much do we want to make the forum about the commercial side of fossil hunting?  :mellow:

How much focus do we put on the buying of fossils as part of a wide ranging hobby/avocation/vocation?

 

The forum's original intent was to be a place where  people could share fossils among different collectors of such.

We have blossomed out and grown, from there,  to where we are today. :) 

It's a great place for the exchange of information about fossils. We work hard to keep fossil dealers from coming here just to spam the membership.

We would like to keep the focus on the fossils themselves, ... all fossils.

 

For now, the search and advanced search options can be used, and can add granular filters for those who know how to use it.

We also have a help and suggestion forum for people who need help with how and what to search for. ;) 

 

 

Just some things for us all to think about.

 

As I said, this is something we will be discussing soon. :) 


 

 

 

 

 

@Fossildude19  

Anything happening on this front?  I have not gone away ...

 

Just a point, this forum is already on the commercial side just recognize how many posts are made from individuals buying fossil.  Those include most dinosaur collectors, all Moroccan marine, fish or Mosasaur items and Trilobites and let's not forget Megalodon collectors just to mention a few.   This is not bad it's just another form that collectors supplement their collection.  

 

 However this is not about the commercial side so let's not mix apples and oranges, I'm not sure why it's even brought up.    Its about pinning reference topics so all members and guests can have easy access to them.  Most of the reference material I posted appears to be in big black hole that is only accessible to those expert in searches or are fortunate to know the exact words used in the post header.  Most are not aware they even exist so why search.  Just look at the pinned topics on Moroccan Mosasaurs, Phacops vs Eldredgeops or Ptychodus Quick Guide they work and are easily seen by all.  Why is what I'm asking for any different?  Collectors like easy access to reference material. 

 

 

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Fossildude19

 

1 hour ago, Troodon said:

 

@Fossildude19  

Anything happening on this front?  I have not gone away ...

 

Just a point, this forum is already on the commercial side just recognize how many posts are made from individuals buying fossil.  Those include most dinosaur collectors, all Moroccan marine, fish or Mosasaur items and Trilobites and let's not forget Megalodon collectors just to mention a few.   This is not bad it's just another form that collectors supplement their collection.  

 

 However this is not about the commercial side so let's not mix apples and oranges, I'm not sure why it's even brought up.    Its about pinning reference topics so all members and guests can have easy access to them.  Most of the reference material I posted appears to be in big black hole that is only accessible to those expert in searches or are fortunate to know the exact words used in the post header.  Most are not aware they even exist so why search.  Just look at the pinned topics on Moroccan Mosasaurs, Phacops vs Eldredgeops or Ptychodus Quick Guide they work and are easily seen by all.  Why is what I'm asking for any different?  Collectors like easy access to reference material. 

 

 

 

I'm glad you haven't gone away, Frank. :) 

No one here wants that.

 

We are still discussing the best way to go about this. 

 

Please realize - we are all volunteers who are on at different times, in different time zones, ... and not everyone chimes in right away on things. 

We also have the day to day Forum moderation to handle, which includes much more behind the scenes than many may realize.

 

Unfortunately, I cannot give any estimate of time on this. All I can ask is that you bear with us while we come to a decision. 

Thank you for the reminder, Frank. 

Regards,

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