Warning: Even dealers/websites warning you of false fossils aren't foolproof themselves

[-Andy- 1,893]

Note: I won't post any pictures here because even with censoring and cropping, the dealer/website is too easily identifiable.

 

As if buying properly identified fossils couldn't get any harder, I was just directed to a extremely professional website that had whole sections on identification of fake fossils, how to identify between various Moroccan dinosaurs, even books on the topic! Every fossil sold there had its own page giving details of said fossil and why it was identified as that particular species etc.

 

I did a search on the raptor section. Less than 10% were true dromaeosaurids.

 

What grates me is that any uninformed buyer would look at the website and go, "They sure know their stuff. Wow! I even get a certificate of authenticity on my fossil!" Cue a buyer spending wasted money.

 

There is great misinformation today in the fossil market, especially Moroccan ones. Sometimes, both diggers and dealers are mistaken about the ID of their fossils thanks to too much hearsay and information passed down from one another. To sum it up:

 

1) A professional-looking website doesn't guaranteed good IDs

 

2) Certificates mean nothing. Anyone can print one out

 

3) Even if a dealer/website tries to teach you how to identify a wrongly-IDed fossil, ensure they practice what they preach. This website pointed out correctly that for raptors, the inner serrations were larger than outer ones. The teeth he sold however, did not follow this rule. Most likely he copied it from somewhere

 

4) The dealer being a member of AAPS doesn't mean he knows what he's selling

 

5) "Everyone else is unreliable! Getting from us is the only way to make sure you know you are getting the correct fossil! We visit the dig sites ourselves, we vet every specimen." Sounds familiar? Some dealers resort to fear tactics to make themselves the only legit-looking source.

 

6) Raptors, dinosaur eggs, tyrannosaurids are some of the fossils that are harder to properly identify. When buying one, be extra cautious about the ID

 

If in doubt, take some pics and show it to the forums. There are plenty of experts here, we are more than happy to help spot for fakes. As the saying goes, caveat emptor "let the buyer beware".

[Susan from PA 232]

The best defense against purchasing fakes and misidentified specimens is to educate yourself about the specimens you wish to purchase.   

[BadlandTraveller 55]

I agree but I don't see why calling out specific auction users or web sites that sell fakes is frowned upon in the forum.

 

My opinion is if they sell fakes they deserve to be called out. 

 

[piranha 6,385]

18 minutes ago, BadlandTraveller said:

I agree but I don't see why calling out specific auction users or web sites that sell fakes is frowned upon in the forum.

My opinion is if they sell fakes they deserve to be called out. 

 

 

That could lead to possible litigation. Imagine it's your item and the reputation of your business is at stake. 

There are many examples at TFF over the years where the cries of "fake" have been shown to be false.

 

 

[Susan from PA 232]

18 minutes ago, BadlandTraveller said:

I agree but I don't see why calling out specific auction users or web sites that sell fakes is frowned upon in the forum.

 

My opinion is if they sell fakes they deserve to be called out. 

 

Sellers cannot be called out due to legal ramifications from doing so.  I agree that it would be nice if it could be done, but it can't.  

[FossilDAWG 5,229]

1 hour ago, BadlandTraveller said:

I agree but I don't see why calling out specific auction users or web sites that sell fakes is frowned upon in the forum.

 

My opinion is if they sell fakes they deserve to be called out. 

 

Piranha and Susan have explained the policy correctly.  A better strategy than "calling out" individual sellers, and one more in keeping with the intent of this Forum, would be to educate readers about what to look for when judging whether or not a specimen is likely to be authentic.  Education provides the best protection against being deceived.

 

Don

[jpc 3,119]

3 hours ago, Susan from PA said:

The best defense against purchasing fakes and misidentified specimens is to educate yourself about the specimens you wish to purchase.   

...or collect it yourself when possible.  

 

 

 

[caterpillar 700]

Yes JP. Collect your own fossils is the best solution

[Troodon 17,543]

Very idealistic views by most since my almost 25 years of experience digging and buying tells me the following:

 

- 99% of dinosaur collectors do not have opportunity to collect and must rely on sellers for their hobby so collecting is not an option.

 

- Identification of Dinosaur material, especially teeth, is not an easy task since little is really understood or published.  Paleontologists even disagree or are still in research mode.  Papers are often too technical for most collectors especially those new to the hobby.   Education can only go so far and usually is limited to the most common of material.   Few collectors really understand teeth or what is important in their diagnosis and want to label everything to a species level.

 

-MOST suppliers regardless if they sell through auction sites, online sites or at shows have some level of misidentified material.  Those that sell Moroccan material have a much greater frequency misidentified material.   Most do not educate themselves to a level they need to understand their offerings, some try.

 

-MOST seller are honest and helpful but are just not aware what's wrong with their offering and are eager to correct discrepancies.  Few are outright disonest or think they know it all.  Unfortunately the forum does not provide an opportunity disclose those sellers, their concern is with the forums health. 

 

-Buyers are part of the problem since they demand a name associated with what they are purchasing forcing sellers to comply.  For example with Moroccan material so little is understood or described no species even genus name should be put on teeth.  Technically even Spinosaurus or Carcharodontosaurus teeth are misidentified and should be held to a family level since so little is known of them and multiple species exist.  Buyers treat sellers as experts that cannot be the furthest from the truth.

 

-The tools provided by the forum limits the learning that is possible on dinosaurs.  No dinosaur topic is pinned and the search engine although good can be a difficult to manage for someone new to the forum or hobby.   For example just try searching Kem Kem beds....

 

So what should the forum do other than the old mantra we are here to educate....one idea is to designate an area to house pinned reference topics on dinosaurs that is easy to access by all, especially new members.  This will at a minimum provide some easy guidance and show members what is out there.  

 

[JohnJ 3,861]

2 hours ago, Troodon said:

...their concern is with the forums health

 

  Without this forum, huge amounts of information about fossils (dinosaur and otherwise) would not be as readily available to collectors around the world in a congenial format.  To have the forum wiped out by lawsuits because someone wants a venue (where they bear no financial liability) to subjectively identify "bad sellers" is a short sighted perspective. 

 

Anyone could set up their own website and call out sellers for their poor business practices...but they had better have "deep pockets" in the litigious times we live in. 

[Troodon 17,543]

25 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

 

  Without this forum, huge amounts of information about fossils (dinosaur and otherwise) would not be as readily available to collectors around the world in a congenial format.  To have the forum wiped out by lawsuits because someone wants a venue (where they bear no financial liability) to subjectively identify "bad sellers" is a short sighted perspective. 

 

Anyone could set up their own website and call out sellers for their poor business practices...but they had better have "deep pockets" in the litigious times we live in. 

 

Your comment just takes a negative approach which I am not fostering and does not provide any direction on improving information to its members on dinosaur identification.    Why don't we have pinned topics on dinosaurs.  Why is so difficult to search specific topic...   You want to educate members so provide them better tools to do so.

 

 

 

[JohnJ 3,861]

2 minutes ago, Troodon said:

 

Your comment just takes a negative approach which I am not fostering and does not provide any direction on improving information to its members on dinosaur identification.    Why don't we have pinned topics on dinosaurs.  Why is so difficult to search specific topic... 

 

 

My comment is not negative, but it addresses the issues raised in this topic and the hard realities of maintaining a forum on the web.  There are other types of fossils not easily accessible to collectors too.  Not all have their own specific forum or Pinned topics. 

 

We try to do our best.   

[Fossildude19 12,663]

A search on the Forum of "Dinosaur teeth identification"  came up with 35 results, ... over half of which were your tremendous Threads and posts on this topic, Frank. 

 

I did search kem kem beds, and it did come up with lots of extraneous posts that only mentioned "beds".   3140 results  (126 pages worth).

 

If, however, ... you use quotes " "  around the words "Kem Kem Beds"  your results are much more filtered to those words alone. 164 results. (7 pages worth) 

This is where those tags  that are required are put to good use.  

An added step to posting, but helpful in the end.

 

The forum search engine, like all computer related things, information that comes out is only as good as the information put into it. 

 

This may not be obvious to all, but perhaps I can come up with something to post in the help and discussions forum as a quick reference to searching the forum.  

Regards, 

 

[FossilDAWG 5,229]

I don't think it's "negative" to attempt to defend against liability issues when we are the ones exposed to risk as a result of other people's actions.

 

Certainly there is a lot of interest in dinosaurs, and I know you and others have provided much useful information in your posts.  If you could provide me with a not-very-long list of what you think were the more useful posts, I could try to help organize it to be more accessible to forum users.

 

By the way, sometimes "education" means informing people about the limits to what they might reasonably expect to achieve in the way of an ID.  I agree most collectors want to be able to put a species name on the label, somehow that seems to be even more important to some than accurate locality or stratigraphy data.  Explaining why an ID is impossible beyond, say, the family level for an isolated tooth, would be a useful contribution.

 

Don

[FossilDAWG 5,229]

4 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

A search on the Forum of "Dinosaur teeth identification"  came up with 35 results, ... over half of which were your tremendous Threads and posts on this topic, Frank. 

 

I did search kem kem beds, and it did come up with lots of extraneous posts that only mentioned "beds".   3140 results  (126 pages worth).

 

If, however, ... you use quotes " "  around the words "Kem Kem Beds"  your results are much more filtered to those words alone. 164 results. (7 pages worth) 

This is where those tags  that are required are put to good use.  

An added step to posting, but helpful in the end.

 

The forum search engine, like all computer related things, information that comes out is only as good as the information put into it. 

 

This may not be obvious to all, but perhaps I can come up with something to post in the help and discussions forum as a quick reference to searching the forum.  

Regards, 

 

I wonder if we could create "pinned" searches, in other words set up a search with the most useful key words and make it a link so when users clicked on it, it would run and retrieve all the relevant posts.  The advantage would be that it would remove the need to update a fixed list of links, which would only be current to the date the list was made.  On the other hand, most of the posts any search would retrieve would be of limited use, so it would be good to also have a short list of "greatest hits", i.e. especially informative posts.

 

Don

[Fossildude19 12,663]

12 minutes ago, FossilDAWG said:

I wonder if we could create "pinned" searches, in other words set up a search with the most useful key words and make it a link so when users clicked on it, it would run and retrieve all the relevant posts.  The advantage would be that it would remove the need to update a fixed list of links, which would only be current to the date the list was made.  On the other hand, most of the posts any search would retrieve would be of limited use, so it would be good to also have a short list of "greatest hits", i.e. especially informative posts.

 

Don

 

I just tried to create a link to a search, and it worked fine.    "Kem Kem Beds"

Sounds like something the admins/mods should discuss.

I like the idea. 

 

 

 

[Troodon 17,543]

23 minutes ago, JohnJ said:

 

My comment is not negative, but it addresses the issues raised in this topic and the hard realities of maintaining a forum on the web.  There are other types of fossils not easily accessible to collectors too.  Not all have their own specific forum or Pinned topics. 

 

We try to do our best.   

 

Your comment about my simply statement is negative because my comment is true and completely taken out of context.   Not sure why you all have to defend a position which I don't like but agree with and ignore all my other comments.  I'm trying to fix a problem and that is scamming a large number of members and guests that are reading these posts that the forum has not addressed.   The normal process is not that effective.  If you can get by that one comment and read the rest of my post you see that the dinosaur collecting community has a serious problem, FRAUD, intentional or not it's there and big money is involved.   So as a forum, I believe, we should treat this area a little different than most other areas without jeopardizing the forum.   

[Troodon 17,543]

28 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

A search on the Forum of "Dinosaur teeth identification"  came up with 35 results, ... over half of which were your tremendous Threads and posts on this topic, Frank. 

 

I did search kem kem beds, and it did come up with lots of extraneous posts that only mentioned "beds".   3140 results  (126 pages worth).

 

If, however, ... you use quotes " "  around the words "Kem Kem Beds"  your results are much more filtered to those words alone. 164 results. (7 pages worth) 

This is where those tags  that are required are put to good use.  

An added step to posting, but helpful in the end.

 

The forum search engine, like all computer related things, information that comes out is only as good as the information put into it. 

 

This may not be obvious to all, but perhaps I can come up with something to post in the help and discussions forum as a quick reference to searching the forum.  

Regards, 

 

 

The problem is that most experienced members or collectors can navigate through the search process but a newbie to collecting may not even know what to ask for or even that there is some reference information available.   Tools that are easily accessible are those that will be used and have the best long term results 

[-Andy- 1,893]

4 minutes ago, Troodon said:

 

The problem is that most experienced members or collectors can navigate through the search process but a newbie to collecting may not even know what to ask for or even that there is some reference information available.   Tools that are easily accessible are those that will be used and have the best long term results 

 

I agree with Frank on this part.

 

I know exactly what to search for before purchasing anything, but new collectors don't. Perhaps a list of stickied guides, or even a 'Fossil Guide'(or something) link on the toolbar along side Collections, Gallery, Maps etc might help.

[Susan from PA 232]

If we could have @Troodon's "My Jurassic Park" posts pinned, that would go an incredibly long way into helping dinosaur collectors.  

[Fossildude19 12,663]

This is something that will have to be discussed among the moderating and admin teams.  

Nothing can be done for a few days at least, as Cris doesn't have access to a computer for a bit.

 

While I agree the quality of Franks posts is exeptionally well presented and helpful, one of my thoughts, however, ... is just how far do we go with this?  

I mean, ...  as I see it, we are a Fossil Forum, first and foremost, not just a Dinosaur forum.

Should we then also have stickied guides to all different fossil categories?

One for shark teeth,  one for crabs,  one for Trilobites, ammonites,...inverts, plants, mammals, etc. etc. etc?  It could get out of hand pretty quickly.

We already have an area specifically to point out and educate folks about fake and potentially fake fossils.  

This has been a very helpful addition to the Forum in my opinion, as it gives us a venue to educate people about the fossils they are looking to buy.  

 

But how much do we want to make the forum about the commercial side of fossil hunting?  

How much focus do we put on the buying of fossils as part of a wide ranging hobby/avocation/vocation?

 

The forum's original intent was to be a place where  people could share fossils among different collectors of such.

We have blossomed out and grown, from there,  to where we are today.  

It's a great place for the exchange of information about fossils. We work hard to keep fossil dealers from coming here just to spam the membership.

We would like to keep the focus on the fossils themselves, ... all fossils.

 

For now, the search and advanced search options can be used, and can add granular filters for those who know how to use it.

We also have a help and suggestion forum for people who need help with how and what to search for.  

 

Also, ... as hard as we try, there is no way to keep a fool and his money from being separated - people will be dazzled by authentic looking (to them) fossils.

We can only do so much for them. They have to be willing to help themselves.  

 

Buyer beware - research your purchase before making a decision. 

 

Just some things for us all to think about.

 

As I said, this is something we will be discussing soon.  

 

 

 

 

[Troodon 17,543]

Thanks, all I can ask for is a discussion on this matter.  Be glad to help

[Wrangellian 2,364]

It's been said already but I'll say it again: It's not just dinosaurs. We invert collectors have to caveat also, and we can't always personally collect what we're interested in. I don't have access to much Paleozoic stuff where I live. Luckily inverts are not as often faked unless you're looking at flashy Moroccan stuff.

 

[Troodon 17,543]

On 2/16/2017 at 10:08 AM, Fossildude19 said:

This is something that will have to be discussed among the moderating and admin teams.  

Nothing can be done for a few days at least, as Cris doesn't have access to a computer for a bit.

 

While I agree the quality of Franks posts is exeptionally well presented and helpful, one of my thoughts, however, ... is just how far do we go with this?  

I mean, ...  as I see it, we are a Fossil Forum, first and foremost, not just a Dinosaur forum.

Should we then also have stickied guides to all different fossil categories?

One for shark teeth,  one for crabs,  one for Trilobites, ammonites,...inverts, plants, mammals, etc. etc. etc?  It could get out of hand pretty quickly.

We already have an area specifically to point out and educate folks about fake and potentially fake fossils.  

This has been a very helpful addition to the Forum in my opinion, as it gives us a venue to educate people about the fossils they are looking to buy.  

 

But how much do we want to make the forum about the commercial side of fossil hunting?  

How much focus do we put on the buying of fossils as part of a wide ranging hobby/avocation/vocation?

 

The forum's original intent was to be a place where  people could share fossils among different collectors of such.

We have blossomed out and grown, from there,  to where we are today.  

It's a great place for the exchange of information about fossils. We work hard to keep fossil dealers from coming here just to spam the membership.

We would like to keep the focus on the fossils themselves, ... all fossils.

 

For now, the search and advanced search options can be used, and can add granular filters for those who know how to use it.

We also have a help and suggestion forum for people who need help with how and what to search for.  

 

 

Just some things for us all to think about.

 

As I said, this is something we will be discussing soon.  

 

 

 

 

 

@Fossildude19  

Anything happening on this front?  I have not gone away ...

 

Just a point, this forum is already on the commercial side just recognize how many posts are made from individuals buying fossil.  Those include most dinosaur collectors, all Moroccan marine, fish or Mosasaur items and Trilobites and let's not forget Megalodon collectors just to mention a few.   This is not bad it's just another form that collectors supplement their collection.  

 

 However this is not about the commercial side so let's not mix apples and oranges, I'm not sure why it's even brought up.    Its about pinning reference topics so all members and guests can have easy access to them.  Most of the reference material I posted appears to be in big black hole that is only accessible to those expert in searches or are fortunate to know the exact words used in the post header.  Most are not aware they even exist so why search.  Just look at the pinned topics on Moroccan Mosasaurs, Phacops vs Eldredgeops or Ptychodus Quick Guide they work and are easily seen by all.  Why is what I'm asking for any different?  Collectors like easy access to reference material. 

 

 

[Fossildude19 12,663]

 

1 hour ago, Troodon said:

 

@Fossildude19  

Anything happening on this front?  I have not gone away ...

 

Just a point, this forum is already on the commercial side just recognize how many posts are made from individuals buying fossil.  Those include most dinosaur collectors, all Moroccan marine, fish or Mosasaur items and Trilobites and let's not forget Megalodon collectors just to mention a few.   This is not bad it's just another form that collectors supplement their collection.  

 

 However this is not about the commercial side so let's not mix apples and oranges, I'm not sure why it's even brought up.    Its about pinning reference topics so all members and guests can have easy access to them.  Most of the reference material I posted appears to be in big black hole that is only accessible to those expert in searches or are fortunate to know the exact words used in the post header.  Most are not aware they even exist so why search.  Just look at the pinned topics on Moroccan Mosasaurs, Phacops vs Eldredgeops or Ptychodus Quick Guide they work and are easily seen by all.  Why is what I'm asking for any different?  Collectors like easy access to reference material. 

 

 

 

I'm glad you haven't gone away, Frank.  

No one here wants that.

 

We are still discussing the best way to go about this. 

 

Please realize - we are all volunteers who are on at different times, in different time zones, ... and not everyone chimes in right away on things. 

We also have the day to day Forum moderation to handle, which includes much more behind the scenes than many may realize.

 

Unfortunately, I cannot give any estimate of time on this. All I can ask is that you bear with us while we come to a decision. 

Thank you for the reminder, Frank. 

Regards,