Mystery Morrison Fm Fossil

[Troodon]

56 minutes ago, westcoast said:

Have you considered granicones?https://www.researchgate.net/figure/222537639_fig1_Figure-1-'Granicones'-from-the-Purbeck-Limestone-Formation-Berriasian-Durlston-Bay

 

Interesting need to read up on this not familiar with it at all, thanks.  The base is very different.   On my specimen it's a cavity.

[Troodon]

28 minutes ago, Peat Burns said:

I agree.  If crustacean, it should have an opening on both ends (unless it was a tip of a chela, which it doesn't appear to be).  Crayfish are known from the Morrison.  @Troodon, does the narrow end have an opening or is it enclosed entirely?

 

 

 

 

I've cleaned the bottom end and although there is some matrix residue it's solid and no evidence of an opening just a cavity 

[piranha]

The UO paleobotanist commented:

 

 

The Morrison specimen looks like a fruit, but probably a new one.

It seems to be a spiky endocarp, and perhaps seed fern or cycad. 

 

 

 

[Troodon]

32 minutes ago, piranha said:

The UO paleobotanist commented:

 

 

The Morrison specimen looks like a fruit, but probably a new one.

It seems to be a spiky endocarp, and perhaps seed fern or cycad. 

 

 

 

 

Probably a new one, suggesting ?

[piranha]

13 minutes ago, Troodon said:

Probably a new one, suggesting ?

 

 

Suggesting it has not been described yet.  Here is a good paper:

 

Chandler, M.E.J. (1966)

Fruiting organs from the Morrison Formation of Utah, U.S.A.

Bulletin of the British Museum Natural History, 12:137-171  LINK

 

[Troodon]

30 minutes ago, piranha said:

 

 

Suggesting it has not been described yet.  Here is a good paper:

 

Chandler, M.E.J. (1966)

Fruiting organs from the Morrison Formation of Utah, U.S.A.

Bulletin of the British Museum Natural History, 12:137-171  LINK

 

 

Great, thank you will checkout the paper.  

[abyssunder]

For a better convenient I splitted the mentioned document, and  uploaded way back in Nov. 2015, and the not working link was fixed later by JohnJ. (Thanks for that.)

 

[Troodon]

12 minutes ago, abyssunder said:

For a better convenient I splitted the mentioned document, and  uploaded way back in Nov. 2015, and the not working link was fixed later by JohnJ. (Thanks for that.)

 

 

Thank you.  Lots of new reading in front of me in an area that is quite different than vertebrates.

[mjs1951ok]

Horsetail.

[abyssunder]

1 hour ago, Troodon said:

 

Thank you.  Lots of new reading in front of me in an area that is quite different than vertebrates.

You are welcome!

 

Just a question to everyone: Was ever found/described echinoids in/from the Morrison Formation?

[mjs1951ok]

None that I know of.

[Troodon]

1 hour ago, mjs1951ok said:

Horsetail.

 

Interesting, thanks I can see the similarities.

 

Definitely coming around to saying what it's not a vertebrate or invertebrate.  Appreciate all the input my head is spinning 

[westcoast]

13 minutes ago, Troodon said:

 

Interesting, thanks I can see the similarities.

 

Definitely coming around to saying what it's not a vertebrate or invertebrate.  Appreciate all the input my head is spinning 

If you eliminate plant too then all our heads will be spinning 

[jpc]

1 hour ago, abyssunder said:

You are welcome!

 

Just a question to everyone: Was ever found/described echinoids in/from the Morrison Formation?

No... no marine fossils; freshwater and terrestrial. 

[Peat Burns]

31 minutes ago, Troodon said:

 

Interesting, thanks I can see the similarities.

 

Definitely coming around to saying what it's not a vertebrate or invertebrate.  Appreciate all the input my head is spinning 

 

14 minutes ago, westcoast said:

If you eliminate plant too then all our heads will be spinning 

Haha.  It's not a head spinning ID thread until rudist and barnacle are suggested 

[Troodon]

4 minutes ago, Peat Burns said:

 

Haha.  It's not a head spinning ID thread until rudist and barnacle are suggested 

 

No no not those guys

[abyssunder]

Thank you for your inputs, mjs1951ok, jpc.

 

I asked because I just wanted to eliminate the possibility of echinoid spine. I read some papers I'm not familiar with (eg. "C.E. Turner, F. Peterson. 2004. Reconstruction of the Upper Jurassic Morrison Formation extinct ecosystem - a synthesis. Sedimentary Geology 167: 309–355"), and I thought, there was a slow transition from marine to lacustrine-terestrial environment, in wich echinoids could survive.

 

" Marine environments
The normal and brackish marine waters of the Late Jurassic Western Interior Seaway extended as far south as northern Utah and Colorado. The shoreline was characterized by low-energy deposition on a low gradient. Glauconitic sandstones are common, and thin deltaic sequences are locally present. Lagoonal gray to black laminated mudstones with finely comminuted plant debris, and thin-bedded sandstones locally overlie the marine sandstones and represent a transition to non-marine deposition.
A marine and brackish water fauna includes body and trace fossils of bivalves, oysters, lingulid brachiopods, crabs, gastropods, and polychaete worms (Hasiotis, this volume). Dinoflagellates have also been recovered from some of the marine deposits (Litwin et al., 1998). Pterosaur tracks as well as ornithopod and theropod dinosaur tracks also occur in the shoreline setting (Hasiotis, this volume). Scarce ammonites occur in these beds in Canada. " - from the mentioned document

 

And here are these Tylocidaris spines that make me confused:

 

[Archimedes]

looks to be the tip of an echinoid spine???

[abyssunder]

Looking at the comparative pictures, that was my second thought.

[piranha]

Evidently there are no echinoderms reported.  The Morrison Formation only has fresh-water invertebrates.

 

 

Here is a response from another specialist familiar with these:

 

I'm not sure it is an endocarp.  It seems to be more cone-like. 

My colleague had similar specimens from Greybull, Wyoming.

 

[abyssunder]

" Although the Morrison Formation is predominantly a continental deposit, there are marine units in the Windy Hill Member. Hence, the presence of what might at first appear to be anomalous fossils, such as the anthozoan trace fossil Conichnus isp., is in fact real occurrences of marine body and trace fossils. " - D. J. Chure et al. 2006. THE FAUNA AND FLORA OF THE MORRISON FORMATION: 2006. Paleontology and Geology of the Upper Jurassic Morrison Formation. New Mexico Museum of Natural History and Science Bulletin 36

 

 

[Troodon]

10 hours ago, piranha said:

Evidently there are no echinoderms reported.  The Morrison Formation only has fresh-water invertebrates.

 

 

Here is a response from another specialist familiar with these:

 

I'm not sure it is an endocarp.  It seems to be more cone-like. 

My colleague had similar specimens from Greybull, Wyoming.

 

 

 

Thanks piranha, appreciate your efforts to reach out.  All opinions welcomed. 

 

[Troodon]

11 hours ago, abyssunder said:

Thank you for your inputs, mjs1951ok, jpc.

 

I asked because I just wanted to eliminate the possibility of echinoid spine. I read some papers I'm not familiar with (eg. "C.E. Turner, F. Peterson. 2004. Reconstruction of the Upper Jurassic Morrison Formation extinct ecosystem - a synthesis. Sedimentary Geology 167: 309–355"), and I thought, there was a slow transition from marine to lacustrine-terestrial environment, in wich echinoids could survive.

 

" Marine environments
The normal and brackish marine waters of the Late Jurassic Western Interior Seaway extended as far south as northern Utah and Colorado. The shoreline was characterized by low-energy deposition on a low gradient. Glauconitic sandstones are common, and thin deltaic sequences are locally present. Lagoonal gray to black laminated mudstones with finely comminuted plant debris, and thin-bedded sandstones locally overlie the marine sandstones and represent a transition to non-marine deposition.
A marine and brackish water fauna includes body and trace fossils of bivalves, oysters, lingulid brachiopods, crabs, gastropods, and polychaete worms (Hasiotis, this volume). Dinoflagellates have also been recovered from some of the marine deposits (Litwin et al., 1998). Pterosaur tracks as well as ornithopod and theropod dinosaur tracks also occur in the shoreline setting (Hasiotis, this volume). Scarce ammonites occur in these beds in Canada. " - from the mentioned document

 

And here are these Tylocidaris spines that make me confused:

 

 

 

 

Wow learning a lot about the Morrison not aware of the marine unit, thank you.

 Certainly a possibility being the tip of a echinoid spine.   It's unfortunate that Chures paper has no illustrations.

[westcoast]

As echinoderms are calcitic and your specimen appears not to be (looks phosphatic but obviously looks can be deceptive) is there any evidence from the Morrison of phosphate or other minrral replacement? Or can you clarify the mineral composition of your specimen?

[Troodon]

2 hours ago, westcoast said:

As echinoderms are calcitic and your specimen appears not to be (looks phosphatic but obviously looks can be deceptive) is there any evidence from the Morrison of phosphate or other minrral replacement? Or can you clarify the mineral composition of your specimen?

 

Sorry don't no how to answer your question