cloudyhere Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Thanks for the snake info Irradiatus! Do you know anything about the venomous snakes in the Mojave? I'm thinking of heading out there in a few weeks and snakes are definitely something I'm wary of. Also, this is an awesome trip report! Looks like the both of you had a good time and came back with tons of great specimens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irradiatus Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Thanks for the snake info Irradiatus! Do you know anything about the venomous snakes in the Mojave? I'm thinking of heading out there in a few weeks and snakes are definitely something I'm wary of.Also, this is an awesome trip report! Looks like the both of you had a good time and came back with tons of great specimens Wariness is a good thing. It's hatred and pure irrational fear that gets me... If you're lucky, you'll see a sidewinder! They're pretty wicked looking beasts. [link] Sidewinder: The mohave also has the Northern Mohave Rattlesnake [link], the famous Western Diamondback Rattlesnake [link], and the Speckled Rattlesnake [link]. The message on each of those sites says it best: "Rattlesnakes are important members of the natural community. They will not attack, but if disturbed or cornered, they will defend themselves. Reasonable watchfulness should be sufficient to avoid snakebite. Give them distance and respect." The main things are 1) watch your step, 2) make a little noise to give the snakes time to warn you where they are, 3) do NOT put any part of your body under rocks, limbs, or anything that you can't see beneath/around. Use a stick or something to check rocks/seating areas. And for goodness sake's take some pics if you see any cool snakes/critters! Also, check your belongings for scorpions (you probably have more of a chance of running across these guys). I've been stung multiple times. Hurts like the dickens. (Note: if you have access to a handheld UV lamp (blacklight) walk around with it at night and you can see scorpions glow, due to a fluorescent molecule in the hyaline layer of their cuticles. It's pretty sweet! They continue to glow after death and even fossilized, because the hyaline layer of the cuticle lasts millions of years!): Watch out for the Arizona Bark Scorpion. Quoth wikipedia: "The bark scorpion is the most venomous scorpion in North America, and its venom can cause severe pain (coupled with numbness and tingling) in adult humans, typically lasting between 24 to 72 hours. Temporary dysfunction in the area stung is common; e.g. a hand or possibly arm can be immobilized or experience convulsions. It also may cause the loss of breath for a short period of time. Due to the extreme pain induced, many victims describe sensations of electrical jolts after envenomation." Thankfully - I've never been stung by that one. Have fun! "The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be. " - Douglas Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDOTB Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 Lets not talk about the spider story. LOL As for snakes, the best thing is to just leave them alone or admire them from a distance. Sometimes you cant do that because you accidentally stumble upon them. And all snakes I dont believe will just tuck tail and "slither". Even if its in the wrong direction (towards you). I am referring to a different GMR trip where another fossil hunter and I watched a water moccasin swim a wide circle around us, and then turn and make a beeline right at me very quickly and didnt stop for nothing. Well, it eventually stopped but not on its own free will. Granted I have seen snakes hold there ground and make threatening displays. Yes most will run err slither, some will make threatening displays, and some will move in your direction. Even if they are not coming after you, so to speak, they are certainly making the wrong decision and if something that is poisonous retreats in your direction you can still call that advancing and having something that could cause you harm, right next to you, and if your not in the best place to run away, you have a problem. So granted they might not be "chasing you" but if they are slithering in your direction then it is really in the eye of the beholder and witnesses. I believe that every animal can be aggressive, even if it is highly uncharacteristic of it or its species. Ok fine as far as the spider, as me and Daniel were walking upstream to a new spot we got into some deep water. So waist deep in water we got to this spot with a lot of overhanging branches and vines and alot of leaves/branches that had congregated in the water, so i went first and started cleaning it out. so we could pass through. Carefully though as it was definitely one of those spots that says "Be Careful". Well I start moving the branches and wood and next thing I know Daniel says "Ummm something big just brushed against my leg, and it wasnt a fish". And then I turn around to see a giant wolf spider run out next to me. I HATE WOLF SPIDERS. Miserable things. And its big. Easily 4" including leg span. So I immediately make the decision to dispatch it with my shovel. Only one problem, I missed. So once I struck the bank where it was sitting only a couple feet from me, I lift the shovel up to hopefully see the dead spider. Instead, it leaps off the bank, comes flying across the water and I start splashing at it to try to get it to go in another direction instead of at me! Well I lost sight of it in the splashing water and the next thing I know, its climbing up my waders! Well that is about when I freaked out, yelled get off me, swatted at it, and hopefully at that point I swatted it across the creek and it decided I wasnt worth its time. Either way I spent the next minute or two swatting myself of where it could be and shaking my fishing vest and praying it wasnt still on me. I can only imagine Daniels amusement at this point. Now that this discussion has been brought up, has anyone had any past instances with a snake that could be construed as the snake being aggressive, not just holding its ground, but moving in your direction even when it had the option to move off in any other direction? If anyone has, share the story! DO, or do not. There is no try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irradiatus Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 lol!! Great job Mike. It made me laugh out loud just remembering it as you rehashed it. The deep voiced, yet girlish, "get off me!!" part was the best. Seriously though - I woulda done the same thing. It was a huge spider! I still don't know what hit my leg (it was a definite hit and not a brush). And when I said it wasn't a fish - I meant not a little minnow or sunfish pecking at me - I know what that feels like. Perhaps it was one of those big eels bumping into me I was standing perfectly still... "The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be. " - Douglas Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDOTB Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 lol!!Great job Mike. It made me laugh out loud just remembering it as you rehashed it. The deep voiced, yet girlish, "get off me!!" part was the best. Seriously though - I woulda done the same thing. It was a huge spider! I still don't know what hit my leg (it was a definite hit and not a brush). And when I said it wasn't a fish - I meant not a little minnow or sunfish pecking at me - I know what that feels like. Perhaps it was one of those big eels bumping into me I was standing perfectly still... Yeah I dont mind spiders from a distance, (remember I pointed out the cool water spiders) but for some reason I just hate wolf spiders. It was definitely a large one, but then again they can have a body an inch and a half long, plus 2"+ leg spans and that makes a pretty big spider for the east coast. Yeah well the last thing I expected was for it to be crawling up my waders LOL. And yes the "Get off Me"! Well, as I said, I hate them. Yeah I was thinking about that as well, and it definitely could have been an eel. That was definitely a better area for them, since it was easily 3 1/2' deep water, murky and very shaded. And eels can get a lot bigger then the ones we saw swimming around that day. They are pretty cool though. But who knows what it could have been, maybe it was a piece of driftwood that I knocked loose, but it could have been an animal, you never know. LOL. DO, or do not. There is no try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDOTB Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 lol!!Great job Mike. It made me laugh out loud just remembering it as you rehashed it. The deep voiced, yet girlish, "get off me!!" part was the best. Seriously though - I woulda done the same thing. It was a huge spider! I still don't know what hit my leg (it was a definite hit and not a brush). And when I said it wasn't a fish - I meant not a little minnow or sunfish pecking at me - I know what that feels like. Perhaps it was one of those big eels bumping into me I was standing perfectly still... LOL, giant spiders and things that "bump into your leg", I think that is why I still wear waders even in the summer. LOL DO, or do not. There is no try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Menser Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 I will preface this by pointing out to those who may not be familiar with me, that I have worked with snakes as a curator, breeder and hunter for almost 40 years. That being said I have to agree with most of what Irratiatus said above. However, one point needs clarification. Black racers and some water snakes (specifically the banded) employ a defensive move where they will dart straight at you. This is not an 'attack' but rather (IMO) an instinctive response to a threat. By charging, the object is to surprise the attacker who hopefully will freeze for a second or even step backwards giving the snake that chance to escape. I have seen water snakes do this so often it is almost a rule (I have not ever seen a Moc do this) that it is a water snake and not a Moc. Racers are very intelligent for snakes. In Florida I have caught them staring in my window watching me on a number of occasions. Sometimes that direction they take towards you is out of curiosity-not malice. Cobras however, are notorious for agressive defensiveness. They will on occasion actively attack if threatened. Anyone who has workd with them can testify to their high intelligence and problem solving abilities. I have also experienced an attack by a captive Atheris squmager (an African Bush viper) who (though only 11 inches long) repeatedly struck at me as it quickly moved towards me even though it had plenty of room to retreat. As far as native snakes go, I have never ran into an aggressive Moccasin. So far the Copperheads (including the one that ran over my boot last year) have tried to retreat rather than fight. The same goes for Timber rattlers. Corals retreat and if cornered go into a twitch with the aim of confusing the attacker as to what is head and what's tail. The only native (eastern) snake that I have seen seriously stand it's ground is the Diamondback. As for Western Rattlers, what little experience I have had with them has been in captive situations, so I withold comment. Be true to the reality you create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDOTB Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 Now in doing a lot of online research about snakes, I read somewhere that water moccasins and maybe this is true for many other snakes, that a high percentage of their strikes, are dry bites being they dont actually use there fangs but just sort of "gum you to death" for lack of a better phrase... Is that true? DO, or do not. There is no try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDOTB Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 Hey Frank, I just realized your from Ayden, NC. Your right in the middle of things when it comes to GMR and Aurora. Do you get out to do much fossil hunting? DO, or do not. There is no try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 They may withhold venom (which is metabolically costly to produce and is essential if they are to eat), but the fangs will still come into play. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDOTB Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 They may withhold venom (which is metabolically costly to produce and is essential if they are to eat), but the fangs will still come into play. Wow, to inject or not to inject, that is the question huh. That's awesome that they are able to do that. DO, or do not. There is no try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Menser Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 From what I have read about 40% is the estimate for dry bites. of course when dealing with a Moc you also have to consider that they often feed on carrion so the bacteria that cause gangrene is present in their mouths along with the other blood / tissue destroying proteins in their venom. I have a nice scar on my hand from a Moc, the result of a 'dry' bite. However, they cannot 'gum' you to death, they lack the jaw strength to accomplish this. Vipers are actually rather weak snakes as they depend on venom to do the work. Not even an Anaconda which has the strongest bite I have experienced can do that, the teeth hold while its coils suffacate you (unlike in the movies, in real life Anacondas cannot crush you). Be true to the reality you create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Menser Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Hey Frank, I just realized your from Ayden, NC. Your right in the middle of things when it comes to GMR and Aurora. Do you get out to do much fossil hunting? When health permits. I am at present limited in the distance I can travel.....But I do Hunt! Be true to the reality you create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDOTB Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 When health permits. I am at present limited in the distance I can travel.....But I do Hunt! Well if you ever want some fossil hunting company let me know, I am usually free every weekend. I have a list of places I have heard of and or need to explore to find new locations. How long have you lived in NC? LOL, I was just joking about snakes "Gumming people to death". I was just referring to a "dry bite". But what I didn't know was that there fangs were still present in a dry bite. I also didn't know that moccasins also fed on carrion. Which probably means small dead things since they dont tear at food? DO, or do not. There is no try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irradiatus Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Black racers and some water snakes (specifically the banded) employ a defensive move where they will dart straight at you. This is not an 'attack' but rather (IMO) an instinctive response to a threat. By charging, the object is to surprise the attacker who hopefully will freeze for a second or even step backwards giving the snake that chance to escape. I have seen water snakes do this so often it is almost a rule (I have not ever seen a Moc do this) that it is a water snake and not a Moc. Thanks for the comments Frank! I stand corrected (mostly). I have never seen a snake do that (or heard of them doing it from herpetologists). Very interesting defensive mechanism (and clever). My main point was that they aren't trying to chase you to attack (I can't count the number of times I've heard that about racers). As for the curious "watching" racer. Now that you mention that, a couple of months ago I was eating a burger in my car at my favorite quiet lunch spot, with the windows rolled down and my arm hanging out. I glanced out my window and suddenly saw a 5 foot long racer not 4 feet away with his head raised - just staring at me. Scared the bejeezus out of me for about 5 seconds, just because I hadn't expected a snake just staring at me through my open window. A few seconds later after IDing it, my face was smiling. Such an awesome and unexpected encounter. It was obviously just curious. And let me tell you - racers live up to their name. The second after I took this picture, it saw me move and zipped outta sight like lightning, This is him/her (taken with my less than great iphone camera): "The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be. " - Douglas Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDOTB Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 Thanks for the comments Frank!I stand corrected (mostly). I have never seen a snake do that (or heard of them doing it from herpetologists). Very interesting defensive mechanism (and clever). My main point was that they aren't trying to chase you to attack (I can't count the number of times I've heard that about racers). As for the curious "watching" racer. Now that you mention that, a couple of months ago I was eating a burger in my car at my favorite quiet lunch spot, with the windows rolled down and my arm hanging out. I glanced out my window and suddenly saw a 5 foot long racer not 4 feet away with his head raised - just staring at me. Scared the bejeezus out of me for about 5 seconds, just because I hadn't expected a snake just staring at me through my open window. A few seconds later after IDing it, my face was smiling. Such an awesome and unexpected encounter. It was obviously just curious. And let me tell you - racers live up to their name. The second after I took this picture, it saw me move and zipped outta sight like lightning, This is him/her (taken with my less than great iphone camera): Daniel, that was one awesome encounter. When I grew up we had lots of red and yellow belly racers where I lived and they were always a favorite to find because they were quite friendly. I had only seen a couple that were really big, mostly they were 12" or less long, but one time I stumbled across a nest of red belly racers including the largest one I had ever seen and it was all in coils so I couldn't try to guess how long, and a whole lot of babies slithering around. Unfortunately I dont see to many snakes anymore. I guess its only because I dont really go looking for them. But thats a pretty good picture from your camera phone. I think the snake was really just wondering where you got your burger from. LOL... J/K... DO, or do not. There is no try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 ok, look. when i was much younger, i dealt quite a bit with wildlife, and in particular snakes, and no, i don't know why, but am afraid that any analysis of it wouldn't be pretty, so i don't go there. but i dealt a lot with "hot" snakes. and lots of other things. and what i'll say is this. if you deal with any potentially dangerous critters frequently, and you mentally generalize any species as non-aggressive, you will eventually run up on a member of that group who will go off on you like a skyrocket and make you pay for your assumptions. i won't waste your time with a bunch of examples, but i will say that i still vividly remember some horrible encounters with several different poisonous snakes, a couple of birds, a tegu lizard (i HATED that lizard), a puma, a raccoon, etc. and a possum took time out from playing dead to bite the snarge out of me. many animals whose preference is to flee will flat take you on if they feel fleeing would make them more vulnerable under the circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Irradiatus Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 and a possum took time out from playing dead to bite the snarge out of me.many animals whose preference is to flee will flat take you on if they feel fleeing would make them more vulnerable under the circumstances. LOL - possum bite... I think it's safe to say that anytime you put yourself within bite distance of an animal, the term "aggressive" does not apply to that animal. For all intents and purposes, you are now threatening their very existence as far as they know, and I'm pretty sure the possum would win the jury over with a "self defense" argument. Possum: "He...he was ...GIANT. And I...I tried to pretend like I was dead, but...but... he just wouldn't go AWAY!!!" *cue possum tears. "The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be. " - Douglas Adams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeDOTB Posted July 7, 2009 Author Share Posted July 7, 2009 LOL - possum bite...I think it's safe to say that anytime you put yourself within bite distance of an animal, the term "aggressive" does not apply to that animal. For all intents and purposes, you are now threatening their very existence as far as they know, and I'm pretty sure the possum would win the jury over with a "self defense" argument. Possum: "He...he was ...GIANT. And I...I tried to pretend like I was dead, but...but... he just wouldn't go AWAY!!!" *cue possum tears. HA HA HA. I agree with you tracer. Any animal can be aggressive, even non-characteristic of the species, there is always one that will not follow the herd so to speak... My worse snake bite came from a milk snake, never had a problem before with any snakes, and this one bit the snarge out of me.. "Cue the possum tears" lol... Better then a beaver biting someones nipple off! Now this lizard Tracer, was it a pet? DO, or do not. There is no try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 I think it's safe to say that anytime you put yourself within bite distance of an animal, the term "aggressive" does not apply to that animal. For all intents and purposes, you are now threatening their very existence as far as they know, and I'm pretty sure the possum would win the jury over with a "self defense" argument. well, semantics aside, it is my sense that a large majority of the people who are rearranged and/or killed by animals are relatively unaware immediately prior to such occurrences that they have transgressed and are therefore entitling the animal to use any and all reasonable force, up to and including deadly force. so the results are the same, whether or not any of the survivors choose to call the animal "aggressive". in the case of the possum, i'm relatively certain that he stalked me for months. besides that, it wasn't so much that he bit me that was unconscionable. it was that he refused to let go. p.s. to mike - again, semantics - some would have considered the circumstances under which i interacted with the tupinambis teguixin to have been effectively a "owner/pet" relationship, but i on the other hand considered it to be a hostage situation in which i was the hostage, and a little bit of stockholm syndrome was occurring. it didn't last too long. the daily dread of dealing with the delinquent demon's devious dangerousness drained my joie de vivre, so one of us had to go, and i was the one paying the bills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Menser Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Devish Demons more frequently occor in Human form. The death toll of so called dangerous animals vs their human "victims" is staggering. One thing that is a pity is there are no statistics to show the percentage of times people were in close proximity of a deadly snake and didn't know it, and it chose to not strike, I assure you the percentage again would be astronomical. It amazes me the terror people in this country have for snakes that kill an average of less than two people a year (the lowest cause of death in the country) and yet fearlessly prowl our roads that kill or injure roughly 450,000 people a year. I have physically worked with and handled 'hot snakes' since my early twenties and never do I allow myself the vulnerability of thinking them benign. But to attribute an aggressiveness that is not their nature is just as foolish. Many years ago a friend of mine was walking in a S. Florida Pine forrest with a 17 year old girl. A rough green snake fell from a branch and landed briefly on the girl on its way to the ground. The girl collasped and died of a heart attack. Oft times fear is far more the enemy than its inspiration. Be true to the reality you create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Menser Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Well if you ever want some fossil hunting company let me know, I am usually free every weekend. I have a list of places I have heard of and or need to explore to find new locations. How long have you lived in NC?LOL, I was just joking about snakes "Gumming people to death". I was just referring to a "dry bite". But what I didn't know was that there fangs were still present in a dry bite. I also didn't know that moccasins also fed on carrion. Which probably means small dead things since they dont tear at food? If your that close would love to have you come over and see the collection... Be true to the reality you create. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 ... if you deal with any potentially dangerous critters frequently, and you mentally generalize any species as non-aggressive, you will eventually run up on a member of that group who will go off on you like a skyrocket and make you pay for your assumptions... True. It was a cow...a young cow...heck, it was probably a yearling, and it was just last fall...with danwoehr! I backed the canoe up to the bank where the stranded bovine teenager had hammered the river ledge he was on into a mosaic of hoofprints. No big deal...I've "rescued" stranded calves from ledges before. Basically, you herd them off into the water toward the closest gravel bar. I told Dan this would just take a minute as I walked slowly toward the cow with my paddle crossways to my body...it's that appear bigger than you are thing. When the cow reached the end of the ledge, he turned...and I swear his eyes opened wider...you know - that Charles Manson look. I was in mid-step, processing this unexpected behavior, when he did that "cartoon bull" scraping his hoof gesture...(it crossed my mind that he should give 2 - 3 pawing moves but he "cheated" - just one). With that, he lowered his head and TORO! I found that I'm amazingly still nimble (lucky). I placed the middle of the paddle perpendicular to his head and absorbed the charge as I raised my feet off the ground to avoid his hooves. Being momentarily pinned above and between the demon cow and the bluff bank as he thundered past, I noticed Dan astutely paddling the canoe from the narrow path of the "harmless" beast (at least that's what he said - it could've been self preservation). Just a small abrasion and a pounding adrenaline rush were all that I suffered...oh, and Dan's laughter until I could join in a few miles downriver. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Boy Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Awesome report Mike and Daniel! And also some great reading material, very enjoyable. I felt like I was there with y'all! Kevin Wilson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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