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Shellseeker

5 Pre_Equus Horse teeth

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Shellseeker

Very INTERESTING day:

Decided, under duress of no fossil hunting for months, to take a kayak on the Peace River (slightly suicidal based on current conditions) or lacking that to Little Paynes Creek (that I thought was doable). Not a question of whether I could actually hunt with shovel and sieve.

On the way I gave a 30 mile lift to a 19 year old Missourian trying to reach the Orlando airport and return to his girlfriend. I figured another good deed would help on a day like this. 

On kayaking, it was short and brutal. Following the advice of the Ranger at Paynes Creek Park, I paddled upstream on Paynes Creek for 1/4 mile with a lifevest on as a test on whether I should try the Peace River.  Upstream was intensive exercise of my biceps, after the fast current dumped me twice, I decided to cut my kayaking day short.

Steve is one of my long time hunting buddies. I needed my long handled hunting shovel repaired, which he does and  Steve and I had discussed my purchase of some of the pre_Equus horse teeth collection that he picked up (literally) as a dragline operation in the Bone Valley Phosphate mines 30-50 years ago.

We finally agreed on the price and the number (5).  Usually I do a lot of identification work BEFORE placing photos - sizes on TFF.

This time something different.. Here are the 5 pre-Equus horse teeth (4 uppers - 1 lower) I bought today.

HELP GREATLY appreciated (even at the Cormohipparrion, Callipus, or Nannippus level.

Tooth #1 a lower: PreEquus2.thumb.jpg.345cc3d3c40b0f45388fcb7574be6a72.jpg

Tooth #2 PreEquus3.thumb.jpg.b2416abd5015341281d26c2ca7a04a00.jpg

Tooth #3  I LOVE this one.... Steve is a GOOD friend, just to sell me thisPreEquus4.thumb.jpg.0614310e7981dcf37eeec0017e3b34c1.jpg

Tooth #4PreEquus5.thumb.jpg.bd5d19554e8c554868fed95109698152.jpg

and Tooth # 5

PreEquus6.thumb.jpg.47cdb6d06563d28fce2661e869feb713.jpg

I am interested in everything and anything about these teeth!!  My collection just got better.!!!!

Finally , on my way home I passed some construction piles just north of Arcadia  and got 50-60 Seashells , mostly gastropods.  Here are a few, but seashells do not have my focus now.   Some fantastic fossil focused day. :D:D:DSeashells2sm.thumb.JPG.43565e6c021ea4a121046a3a40a85171.JPG

 

Edited by Shellseeker
Forgot a photo of a tooth discussed

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WhodamanHD

Sorry I can't help, but those snails are quite nice!

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jcbshark

Excellent colors on those teeth Jack : )

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Shellseeker
3 hours ago, WhodamanHD said:

Sorry I can't help, but those snails are quite nice!

Likely need @MikeR to tell me what they are... and therefore what formation they came from....

1 hour ago, jcbshark said:

Excellent colors on those teeth Jack : )

Agree.  I am so used to Black.  I did stop at a couple of places.  This one used to be 10 inches deep... Water.thumb.jpg.5df31392db870813dbad95d7612cde8d.jpg

 

Here is what I think so far....

Photos #2 and #5 may be the same tooth, an M2 right cheek Nannippus Peninsulatus.

NannippusSidebySide.thumb.jpg.e8eb5f0f4e3844ef63fbac94254888f7.jpg

Tooth #4 is a Cormohipparion, maybe Plicatile,  but the size is smaller than normal, so we'll have to check for smaller Cormohipparions...

PreEquus5txt.thumb.jpg.c0545567559830a1eb32687864e554d7.jpg

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doushantuo

Just wondering if you know about this

(which DOES contain dental details which might be helpful)

bidastcajjes.jpg

bifcragofis.jpg

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Shellseeker

I had not looked at that reference, and I do no have a good link to it.  I have been searching Hulbert's The Fossil Vertebrates of Florida. If you have it, look on page 289,  right next to the "A" and tell me what you think of this identification. And now I really do have to get some sleep,  Night all,  Jack

PreEquus4txt.thumb.jpg.5d2c06deb42a338a529445a54b8540cf.jpg

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Shellseeker
8 hours ago, doushantuo said:

I seldom have what I would call,for want of a better term,"commercial" publications on Cenozoic mammals.*

So no,I don't have THAT Hulbert(the "other" stuff i tend to have ,though)

*Not being disparaging there,BTW:I have a high opinion of Hulbert 

Apology. That suggestion was foolish on my part. I live in Florida, see Richard 2 or 3 times a year at fossil events and I am interested in pre-Equus horses. It makes a lot of sense for me to own the book. Not very much for others.

I have just browsed the Woodburne PDF.  He focuses on Mid west (Nebraska. Texas, etc) Cormohipparion.  It is valuable because I start to get a sense of variability across the same family group.  Here is one of Woodburne's pictures.

WoodburneCormohipparion.JPG.be66cdc442799579fc65d001b2c2c20d.JPG

and here is a side by side from Hulbert's book of a Cormo Plicatile M3:

CormoPlicatileM3mrg.thumb.jpg.715a13efd4b2d4095902547d29c37651.jpg

 

All I feel comfortable with so far is that this tooth is a Cormohipparion sp. left M3. Thanks for your help in tracking down the scientific papers.   Jack

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Shellseeker

Identification of the lower tooth #1. Last November I posted a small horse tooth from the Peace River that Hulbert eventually identified as Nannippus Peninsulatus, the smallest (40 kg) and one of the last pre_Equus Miocene horses.

I think tooth #1 is a match for that November tooth: Despite my photos, Bone Valley tooth is actually smaller than Peace River variation, making this ID more likely.

NannippusP_lowerleft_m3MRG.thumb.jpg.627f9aace9b1f3e9c593ba0a92fb3f15.jpg

 

I feel like I am back in grade school;  I'll send these identifications to Hulbert and he will grade my answers.    Jack

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ynot
43 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

I think tooth #1 is a match for that November tooth: Despite my photos, Bone Valley tooth is actually smaller than Peace River variation, making this ID more likely.

I think they look different to each other.

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Shellseeker
38 minutes ago, ynot said:

I think they look different to each other.

 

I am with you, Tony.  Usually, I do a little due diligence by reading the scientific papers,  scanning Hulbert's books on local pre-Equus horse teeth,  see what I can find on internet sites, and then make the best guess on what the tooth looks closest to being.

I also try to recall all the advice I have received from experts on this forum and other places. There are some similarities and some differences and I am trying to discover , by trial and error, what differences count and which differences do not count.

I also learn that Nannippus Peninsulatus was one of the smallest pre-Equus horses, one of the most populous mammals for its time, and one of the last of its kind to go extinct in the late Miocene of Florida. 

So this is a little like buying a lottery ticket: I have a tooth that is smaller than another tooth that has been identified by an expert as belonging to the smallest pre-Equus horse that existed in Florida. A little independent on how it looks, I'm betting the long shot. I think it will pay off either way.  I learn something every time I am wrong.  

Jack

 

 

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siteseer

Hi Jack,

 

You need to PM Fossillarry.  Bone Valley horse teeth are in his wheelhouse along with other horses going back to those Early Eocene days.

 

Jess

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fifbrindacier

Your teeth have nice colors Jack and your snails are beautiful.

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Darko

Awesome teeth and awesome snails!!

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Shellseeker

59af235da8a2a_N_aztecus_m31.thumb.jpg.ad8de5f4191fed4dc371f3eb10201f3c.jpg59af2363ba9c7_N_aztecus_M22.thumb.jpg.e1a3a564a4eadc2c8b2a72b8bc458055.jpg59af2369de3b9_N_aztecus_P23.thumb.jpg.1c1587549ab4fc59a9d4da6d6668fc28.jpg59af236fd3f25_N_aztecus_P34.thumb.jpg.fc4fc57c1e651dd634688636b7c4bf56.jpg59af237611459_N_aztecus_M25.thumb.jpg.5fc651679c9c2e9e7e28f996cf0e528b.jpg59af2380e8db8_CormohipparionemslieiUpdated.thumb.jpg.7539a2b9877bf5025e044733b8d376b2.jpg

 

Well, I sent a note/photos and Richard Hulbert responded. What a fantastic resource for Florida fossil identification.

Quote

You got some right and some wrong. 

The tooth in image C_PlicatileTxt1 is a left P2 of Nannippus aztecus.

C_PlicatileTxt2 is a left P3 or P4 of Nannippus aztecus.

NannippusP_lowerleft_m3 is a left lower m3, but is Nannippus aztecus and not N. peninsulatus.

Nannippus Ptxt1 and NannippusPtxt2 are both left upper M1 or M2 of Nannippus aztecus.

 Cormohipparion emsliei  is identified correctly and is an upper right M1 or M2.

The Blancan species Nannippus peninsulatus is not present in the phosphate mines; the most common species is Nannippus aztecus.  It is from the late Hemphillian age.  There are also older species of Nannippus present.

Cormohipparion emsliei is the late Hemphiallian species of this genus, and so is common in the mines. Cormo. plicatile is an older species (late Clarendonian-early Hemphillian) that is rare in the mines.

Other common species are Pseudhipparion simpsoni and Neohipparion eurystyle.  More rare is Dinohippus mexicanus, which will look sort of like an Equus but more curved in the uppers and with a shorter protocone.

Extremely rare is Astrohippus stockii.

 Richard

 

Photo's in order of Richard's identification.

ALL 5 of the original teeth I tried to identify in this thread are Nannippus aztecus. I sent a 6th tooth Cormohipparion emsliei photo to Richard which was correct identified.

NET:  BV phosphate mines date Hemphillian and my finds in the Peace River are Blancan.. Millions of years also means different species.  Nannippus aztecus rather than Nannippus peninsulatus.  I said I learn a lot by being wrong and I learned a lot here. I will move these photos and IDs to my gallery.

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siteseer

Hi Jack,

 

From what I've learned about Florida horse teeth, Nannipus peninsulatus is not only found only in the Blancan, its teeth are also clearly larger than those of other Nannipus species.  It's also among the last-survivng, if not the last-surviving, three-toed horse in North America.

 

Jess

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Plantguy

Interesting additions Jack. great teeth! congrats. Glad Dr. Hulburt cleared up the ID's. 

 

Regards, Chris 

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Shellseeker
4 hours ago, siteseer said:

Hi Jack,

From what I've learned about Florida horse teeth, Nannipus peninsulatus is not only found only in the Blancan, its teeth are also clearly larger than those of other Nannipus species.  It's also among the last-survivng, if not the last-surviving, three-toed horse in North America.

 

Jess, Seems like Nannippus existed from 13.4 to 3.3 myas. I have actually found N. peninsulatus (4 uppers and 1 lower m3) in a site that Richard Hulbert identified as Blancan from the set of different species  we found at that site. Once again, Richard identified N. peninsulatus as the last three-toed horse in Florida and and noted that it was larger than other Nannippus cousins but still among the smallest of horses...

I had seen these dates on N. peninsulatus from Fossilworks Age range: 4.9 to 1.8 Ma .and for N. Aztecus from Fossilworks  Age range: 13.65 to 1.8 Ma .  However others indicate Peninsulatus extinct 3.3 mya and Aztecus extinct 4.7 mya. 

It MIGHT be a difference between Florida and North American dating.

Do you have a reference for N. Peninsulatus age range.

 

1 hour ago, Plantguy said:

Interesting additions Jack. great teeth! congrats. Glad Dr. Hulburt cleared up the ID's.

Chris, 

I push limited expertise and some research to proposal identifications but to my credit, I take my guesses to Richard and he is generous enough to correct my numerous errors. Hopefully the end results justify some of the means..  :D

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Plantguy
On 9/13/2017 at 10:47 PM, Shellseeker said:

Chris, 

I push limited expertise and some research to proposal identifications but to my credit, I take my guesses to Richard and he is generous enough to correct my numerous errors. Hopefully the end results justify some of the means..  :D

Hey Jack, your doing good. Having Richard lock in ID's is as good as it gets. I cant remember anything anymore so having something documented for future references makes me very happy! I ran across some more teeth fragments this week, one of which looks very close to what you have. 

20170916_210703.thumb.jpg.c8dfd504cdbf66036fca363efbe7f348.jpg

Be safe out there when hunting. With all this rain, even fire ant problems are a nastier problem than usual. Continued success! 

Regards, Chris 

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Shellseeker
14 hours ago, Plantguy said:

Hey Jack, your doing good. Having Richard lock in ID's is as good as it gets. I cant remember anything anymore so having something documented for future references makes me very happy! I ran across some more teeth fragments this week, one of which looks very close to what you have. 

20170916_210703.thumb.jpg.c8dfd504cdbf66036fca363efbe7f348.jpg

Be safe out there when hunting. With all this rain, even fire ant problems are a nastier problem than usual. Continued success! 

Regards, Chris 

I love the colors on this one Chris.  Black enamel on cream dentine... must be from the mines. Also love the wiggles -- maybe called fossettes. Harry had lots of discussions with Richard on small horse teeth that seemed to be pre-equus but Richard was clear. 

Yours is a lower.  Here are a couple of small equus lowers from @Harry Pristis. Lets see if he has a view on yours.  What is the sizes?horse_pair_equus_A.JPG.bd181bd0eb8034c09415f22a2e90d50f.thumb.JPG.8ff8e73778e9d826bca4fcab32cb51e3.JPG

 

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