ozrit Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Hi, These are from an old collection in Israel. We only know that they are from Germany- Carboniferous. Any help would be highly appreciated. Regards. Oz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Disclaimer: Not an expert by any means and these don’t seem to be very well preserved. I have no idea on the first pictures (same one posted twice?) but the second appears to be Alethopteris serli judging by the vein pattern that is visible. You can look it up to compare in person since you have the advantage of holding the actual fossil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Carboniferous from Germany? Very unlikely! I think these are Palaeoniscum (alternative spelling Palaeoniscus) freieslebeni from the Permian (Kupferschiefer = Coppershale) around Mansfeld and Richelsdorf. 5 Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
izak_ Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I agree with oilshale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 10 minutes ago, Micah said: Disclaimer: Not an expert by any means and these don’t seem to be very well preserved. I have no idea on the first pictures (same one posted twice?) but the second appears to be Alethopteris serli judging by the vein pattern that is visible. You can look it up to compare in person since you have the advantage of holding the actual fossil. Alethopteris, vein pattern? This is a fish, not a fern. Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Micah Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I obviously didn’t look closely enough there is clearly a tail... glad there are so many people more experienced than I! I was so focused on it being Carboniferous and a plant I failed to notice everything contrary to that... 11 minutes ago, oilshale said: Carboniferous from Germany? Very unlikely! I think these are Palaeoniscum freieslebeni from the Permian (Kupferschiefer Coppershale) around Mansfeld and Richelsdorf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Tom,not disagreeing with greater knowledge ,but why not e.g. Rhadinichthys ? edit: taphonomy?lithology?morphology? all of the above? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Agreed, Rhadinichthys would look very similar, but I am not aware of a single Carboniferous fish location in Germany. On the other hand, Palaeoniscum is a very common fish. https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaeoniscum_freieslebeni Sorry, only in German, but you can easily translate the text with https://www.deepl.com/translator (in my opinion much better than google) Thomas 1 Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Also,wie immer werden die fahigkeiten der Hollander im sache andere Sprachen unterschatzt Rudi Carell,move over Habe doch keine Deutssprachige street credibility Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 2 minutes ago, doushantuo said: Also,wie immer werden die fahigkeiten der Hollander im sache andere Sprachen unterschatzt Ich meinte garantiert nicht dich! Aber die Übersetzungssoftware ist wirklich Klasse. Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 agreed,Google translate is a crime what about Haspe in Westfalia?(Aldinger,1936/coelacanthids/Acrolepis,I believe) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 12 minutes ago, doushantuo said: agreed,Google translate is a crime what about Haspe in Westfalia?(Aldinger,1936/coelacanthids/Acrolepis,I believe) Ok, ok, there are a couple of them. Rösenbeck in the Rhenish Mountains is another location. But really not common. Acrolepis? - no that's a Permian fish also from the Kupferschiefer Formation. Thomas Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I'll go along with Thomas and vote for Permian fish. Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I wasn't aware that Acrolepis can be also found in the Carboniferous of Derbyshire. Seems that Carboniferous fish are more common in UK Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Palaeoniscum freieslebeni was my first thought here. However, between the poor preservation, and absence of identifying features, it might be best to label it : Palaeoniscidae indet., possibly Palaeoniscum freieslebeni Blainville, 1818 . Regards, Contrasted some of the photos to try to get more detail. Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 In need of a revision:Canobius,Elonichthys,Rhadinichtys,"Palaeoniscum" De Blainville's original spelling was freieslebenense,BTW Below:from Mickle/Foss.Rec.,2017) Palaeoniscoids have been present in what is now Germany since the Devonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miocene_Mason Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Love those rotliegend fish, nice buy! “...whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been and are being evolved.” ~ Charles Darwin Happy hunting, Mason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taogan Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 Looks like something from the Kupferscheifer to me as well, but I don't think you can get more of an ID on it. When I lived in Sachsen-Anhalt we used to label all the fish like this Palaeoniscid indet and throw them in the back of the cupboard to try and identify them later, we rarely managed it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doushantuo Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I think it's Muensterichthys........... mwah,just kidding Something i seldom do: Google image search for paleoniscoid: the uninformative indifferent preservation we see here has been elevated to something of a standard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 I think the fairly equal sized lobes of the caudal find would dissuade me from Elonichthys. I think that Pelaeoniscum, being a very common find from these areas is probably a good bet, but the indet. is the best way to go for ID at this time. Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnBrewer Posted November 21, 2017 Share Posted November 21, 2017 5 hours ago, Taogan said: Looks like something from the Kupferscheifer to me as well, but I don't think you can get more of an ID on it. When I lived in Sachsen-Anhalt we used to label all the fish like this Palaeoniscid indet and throw them in the back of the cupboard to try and identify them later, we rarely managed it. I’ve got a cupboard like that too John Map of UK fossil sites Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozrit Posted November 22, 2017 Author Share Posted November 22, 2017 Thank you all very much! If you think it can help I can take higher quality photos (those were taken with my cellular...) although it is poorly preserved indeed. Again, many thanks. Regards, Oz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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