Kem Kem Vertebrae ID Thread

[talon22]

Since sauropods are poorly known from the Kem Kem, can i ask about these caudal vertebra's on the internet for sale. Do they look like sauropod and if so, can it be determined if they are more likely from a diplodocoid like Rebbachisaurus or an undescribed sauropod?

 

Also thanks everyone for the help before with the spinosaurid vertebra (i didn't win the auction, but it sure looked nice).

 

 

 

 

[talon22]

And these are the other similar vertebra's.....

 

[Troodon]

Nice vertebra I believe these are mostly Croc. Your last vert the one without a neural spine, may be theropod, cf Noasauridae

 

This may be Theropod if this element has been added and not part of vertebra.  Needs to be prepped to get a better look

[LordTrilobite]

I wholeheartedly agree with Troodon. Most seem to be croc and that one without the dorsal spine might be Theropod.

[talon22]

Thanks Troodon and LordTrilobite, i guess it was too good to be true, interesting about the possible theropod vertebra. 

[LordTrilobite]

A small update. I posted this vertebra originally on the first page where I labeled it as vertebra number 15. But only now have I gotten around to making good photos of it and labeling it correctly.

 

 

@Troodon posted one of his vertebrae also on the first page of this thread that was very similar to mine, although much more complete. This vertebra to be exact.

On 11/21/2017 at 6:54 PM, Troodon said:

Caudal of unknown Theropod

 

A while later he found a good match for it. Masiakasaurus from Madagascar. Though this animal is from later in the Cretaceous and from an entirely different area, it's similar enough that this vertebra is probably of a similar animal. My vertebra also has the same characteristics though the zygapophyses are broken off on mine and it's a little crushed. Mine is a little more slender, but that is likely due to a more distal position. It's common for caudal vertebrae to get more slender as you get closer to the end of the tail. Most notably these two vertebrae share the barely noticeable slight bump that is the dorsal process and the horizontal ridge on the sides of the centrum, which they also share with Masiakasaurus. Masiakasaurus is a type of Noasaurid. Noasaurids are a sister group to Abelisaurids and both are inside Abelisauroidea.

Masiakasaurus distal caudal vertebrae. Notably the vertebra on the right seems like a good match. Troodon already posted this image in this thread before, but I post it here again for clarity sake.

 

 

But since Masiakasaurus is unknown in the Kem Kem beds I think it's fair to label both these specimens as distal caudal Abelisauroid vertebrae. We know that Abelisaurids are present, though we aren't sure if Noasaurids are also present in the Kem Kem beds. Though Deltadromeus was at one point labeled as a Noasaurid (though not anymore it seems, most recently it was labeled as a Neovenatorid). So I think with the information we have right now, Abelisauroid is a good label until we discover more about the fauna.

 

[Troodon]

I'm okay with that identification and makes sense considering how little we know and the limited number specimens we can compare against.  Sounds like a reasonable approach. 

 

Nice photos 

[LordTrilobite]

Though however slowly. We are getting somewhere.

[Haravex]

On 11/22/2017 at 11:15 AM, LordTrilobite said:

All great additions to the thread though. I'll be updating the first post with some of those Kem Kem papers.

That first looks like a caudal vertebra. It also looks very similar to my nr. 14 vertebra. Mine is about the same in preservation though a dorsal spine is glued on to mine. Your second one looks really interesting, I don't think I've seen that shape of vert from Kem Kem before. My thinking is that this might be a cervical vert, but I'm really not sure.

 

I actually found a close match its a champosaur vertebrae from hell creek formation.

 

[LordTrilobite]

2 hours ago, Haravex said:

I actually found a close match its a champosaur vertebrae from hell creek formation.

 

That could be interesting because Champsosaurs are thus far unknown in the Kem Kem beds. Champsosaurs, though unrelated share a lot of similar anatomy with crocs though. So maybe we shouldn't rule out it being croc.

[Pteranodon]

Hello,

Here are some detailed pictures of my supose "Theropod vert" from Kem Kem its very small 2.5cm lenght.

I recently had the chance to show this vert to Professor Jan Smit, and he said he's not sure if it's from a dinosaur but its certainly not croq.

His best guess would be mosasaur!

 

 

[LordTrilobite]

Looks like a dorsal or anterior caudal vert I think.

[Anomotodon]

13 minutes ago, Pteranodon said:

His best guess would be mosasaur!

Mosasaur vertebrae are procoelous (anteriorly concave and posteriorly convex), this one isn't, so it's either dinosaur or croc. Also, mosasaurs were not around in Kem Kem.

[Haravex]

Question why can this vertebrae not be crocodile?

[LordTrilobite]

Another update.

 

Over the years I've been collecting and photographing some more Spinosaur vertebrae. The ones I have good photos for, I have added to the original post on the first page. We now have reference for some more different positions in the tail for Spinosaurids. Though anterior an mid caudal are still missing. And it also seems like there might be two different morphs of Spinosaurid caudal vertebrae, with one type being more elongate and pinched than the other.

 

This is the latest scan I made of one of these Spinosaurid caudal vertebrae.

 

I've also added more images for Deltadromeus and sauropod from old existing literature.

[Ruger9a]

I really do love the 3D images.  Thanks for sharing and making us envious of your 3D imaging skills :-)

[LordTrilobite]

So with the new information on Spinosaurus tails I will be checking all my Spinosaur verts again and re-evaluating them to see if I can learn some more. Already I'm seeing some things that were wrong before. So I will be posting more info on that soon.

But one thing that stuck out to me was this weird vert. It has been discussed on the forum before. And the tentative conclusion was that it might have been from a crocodile. But with the new reference it's obvious that it's nearly identical to the very last of the spinosaur caudal vertebrae.

 

 

A 3d model that was posted on sketchfab of that new Spinosaur tail. It has the same odd horizontal pinch in the middle of the centrum. And the same odd "cat ears" on the front and back of the centrum. So that's another mystery solved!

[LordTrilobite]

I made another scan of a partial vertebra I got a while ago. I mirrored the missing half. So now pretty much the whole neural arch is complete again.

I'm pretty sure this is a  posterior cervical vertebra. Note how much wider it is to the theropod vertebrae. It's 7.5 cm tall. Considering the size I think Elosuchus is a likely candidate.

[Troodon]

Vertebrae string of the Crocodylomorph Araripesuchus

 

 

 

 

[Troodon]

Any chance this is a distal Spino?  

 

 

123968021_847223796039550_8134804862204375139_n.mp4

[LordTrilobite]

Might be. But the prezygapophyses look to be composited on. And the neural arch seems a little fat.

[Troodon]

16 minutes ago, LordTrilobite said:

Might be. But the prezygapophyses look to be composited on. And the neural arch seems a little fat.

Those processes are indeed composited but you would expect the neural arch to be that cross-section on Spino's.  The dorsal view on that process seems to also compare well as well as the lateral view on the centrum.   Someone posted it on the facebook forum and it was sold to them as a raptor vert

[LordTrilobite]

It's definitely not raptor. Looks nothing like that.

 

This distal spinosaurus caudal vert from the neotype actually is pretty close.

[DenverEdge]

I thought I would add mine to this thread. It’s 1 inch long by 1.2 inch wide and 1.2 inch tall and feels very light at 13.8grams. Seems hollow as I can hear sediment rattling inside.It has small indentations about the size of a needle on it. One side of it is seems to be badly damaged

[Josh_irving]

On 11/22/2017 at 2:14 AM, LordTrilobite said:

So I'll start here with my own Kem Kem vertebrae. Most of the are quite incomplete, which makes identification harder of course.

I have a few of them figured out. But others are quite problematic.

 

 

Here are the side and top views. Gimme a shout if I need to make some better photos of specific specimens. I've numbered all of them for easier reference.

 

Numbers 1 to 3 are all clearly Spinosaurid and likely Sigilmassasaurus due to the small neural process and strong keels.

Nr. 2 threw me off a bit since it's so incredibly small but the morphology seems pretty consistent with Sigilmassasaurus.

Nr. 4 compared well with a Carcharodontosaurid vertebra @Troodon once posted on the forum, though I still have my doubts if my ID is correct. It's a pretty fragmentary chunk ofc.

Nr. 5 looks like a croc cervical to me but it being concave at both ends is throwing me off as most good examples I can find of croc verts have a convex end as well.

Nr. 6 should be identifiable as it's a complete neural arch, it seems to compare favourably to the cervicals of some crocs. And the zygapophyses on the front and back seem much to wide and oriented wrong to be Theropod.

Nr. 1

Nr. 3

 

 

Nr. 7 is my largest Kem Kem vertebra, the size along eliminates a lot of animals. it's much too fat around the middle for any Spinosaurid imo. It seems quite heavily built so I think Sauropods can be ruled out as well. So the only really gigantic animals that are left are Carcharodontosaurids.

Nr. 8 is a really weird one that I cannot place. It's quite fat, but also hollow in places and the centrum has one side at an angle. Due to it being hollow makes me think it's Theropod but I haven't been able to find a match yet.

Nr. 9 is the back end of a sacrum. It compares pretty well to crocs, it seems fairly heavily built and the centrum is wider than tall.

Nr. 10 I bought this one as a Deltadromeus vertebra. But I can't find any good reference of this animal so I dunno.

Nr. 11 a dorsal vert with a rather wide neural canal, no clue really.

Nr. 12 A nice little fragment, but not very informative. Don't think this can be ID'd

Nr. 8

Nr. 9

Nr. 10

 

Nr. 13 A rather tall caudal vert that compares well with vertebrae attributed to Spinosaurids. But it's hard to find any really good reference.

Nr. 14 Really latterally flat caudal vert, theropod?

Nr. 15 caudal vert from near the end of the tail, also seems pretty slenderly built. Theropod?

Nr. 16 and 17 Though 17 is much more damaged, the centra are the exact same shape. Also fairly slender.

Nr. 18 I've posted this weird vertebra on the forum before as it's really bizarre. The centrum has a lateral pinch in the middle and directly above it there is a bulbous area that flares out to the sides. The consensus on the forum was that this is likely from a crocodile.

Nr. 19 Another weird caudal from the very end of the tail. What's strange about this one is that the neural canal is really wide. I read somewhere that such a wide neural canal in this area of the tail is common for crocs.

Nr. 20 A really small anterior caudal vertebra of a dinosaur. It has some hollow areas and it compares well with Theropods. But I haven't been able to find a good match yet. Judging from the size I'd say this animal was probably no bigger than 2 metres.

Nr. 20

 

 

So those are my vertebrae from Kem Kem so far. I'd suggest people start posting theirs so we can compare them in the hopes that we might learn more about them.

 

 

Thanks for all the information, I have this vertebrae from Kem Kem. Not sure what its off maybe Croc or Spino?