TXHunter Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Ok, so I ran into a park attendant on Lake Grapevine this weekend who told me that fossil hunting (actually removing any kind of artifact) from the corp land was a $5,000 fine. Is this accurate? How many other places is this the case? I am just getting into this and I guess I don't really know the "rules". How often is this enforced? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Q. Where can I go to collect arrowheads and fossils? A. While artifact and fossil collecting is illegal on public lands, it is not unlawful on private property as long as permission is granted by the landowner. It is the responsibility of the collector to know who owns the land, to understand the laws that apply, and to obtain permission to enter private property. We do encourage you to take an active part in preserving Texas' heritage for future generations by adopting a "look but don't touch" approach to appreciating archeology. From the Beyond Texas History Home Page Galveston Island 32 miles long 2 miles wide 134 bars 23 liquor stores any questions? Evolution is Chimp Change. Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning to dance in the rain! "I like to listen. I have learned a great deal from listening carefully. Most people never listen." Ernest Hemingway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Ok, so I ran into a park attendant on Lake Grapevine this weekend who told me that fossil hunting (actually removing any kind of artifact) from the corp land was a $5,000 fine. Is this accurate? How many other places is this the case? I am just getting into this and I guess I don't really know the "rules". How often is this enforced? Thats probably true there. A few years back they had some dino footprints get damaged/stolen due to collectors. Also state parks are illegal to hunt in, and any private private property unless you have permission. Many of the lakes in the area do not let you hunt in or around them. The best way to know is to ask a park ranger, or check web sites. Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeD Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 That's kinda what I was thinking, with all the stories of hunting at Texoma, Lake Worth, Waco, Jacksboro, etc... At Texoma, I don't think they care as long as you pay to park, Waco you need a permit, Jacksboro restricted to one area. I think it just depends on where you are. Don't know if all of these are Corps lakes or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXHunter Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 Anybody ever know of anyone getting slapped with the $5K fine ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traviscounty Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Anybody ever know of anyone getting slapped with the $5K fine ? I know of someone who got busted at lake LBJ for picking up 2 points. Vehicle seizure and $3,000 fine. Also check out the XYZ affair online. But, these guys were being stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traviscounty Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Here's a link. I think most authorities look at artifacts differently than fossils. http://www.dirtbrothers.org/editorial/xyzaffair.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXHunter Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 So, it is legal to hunt the NSR ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traviscounty Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I would hate to see anyone put common sense above the laws of the land. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreekCrawler Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 So, it is legal to hunt the NSR ? Yes, it is perfectly alright to hunt the NSR.There is actually a nice covered parking area on the 34 bridge just outside of Ladonia with a Fossil park sign. You can hunt fossils to your hearts desire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2ynpigo Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 Out west, in general, you can legally collect invertibrate fossils and petrified wood from BLM and U. S. Forest Service lands. In New Mexico, you can not trespass onto State land, much less collect anything without permission from the State Land Office. In New Mexico, State land is treated as private property. This may be different in other states. Fortunately, in New Mexico, there is plenty of BLM and Forest Service land in the western part of the state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbeau Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 A friend of mine knew someone who found what he believed was a new species of carnivorous dinosaur on public lands in Colorado. He knew that the law prohibited him taking the fossils, but he wanted to make sure that people understood the significance of the find before it weathered away, so he took two bones that showed that it was a different species, properly documented where they were situated, and brought them to Colorado State University. The person he met with at the university treated him with contempt and didn't want anything to do with the bones. The next morning that same person from the university showed up on his doorstep with two uniformed police officers who not only took the bones and documentation, but proceeded to rail on him for doing what he did. In the end he did not get fined. The laws about this cut both ways. In the end, that same carnivore is still sitting out in the open weathering away because nobody with authority has time to do anything about it. I am told this happens a lot. I think the laws protecting these finds are good as long as they provide a reasonable path for people to collect the finds if the government authorities won't...but most of the laws don't allow for that. What happens as a response is that a tremendous number of significant fossil finds are purposefully documented improperly because they were collected on public lands. People will still collect the specimens, as you can see in this thread, but if questioned or published, they will lie about where the specimen was found...which seriously messes with people trying to properly document occurrences of species. The laws need reforming...but it is important to have them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXHunter Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 So does a list exist of legal and illegal areas. Such as: Lake Grapevine = Illegal North Sulphur River = Legal Lake Worth = ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 So does a list exist of legal and illegal areas. Such as:Lake Grapevine = Illegal North Sulphur River = Legal Lake Worth = ? I have never had any problems on the North Side of the lake. The spillway as its called. The south side would be off limits just because its a naval base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traviscounty Posted August 4, 2009 Share Posted August 4, 2009 So does a list exist of legal and illegal areas. Such as:Lake Grapevine = Illegal North Sulphur River = Legal Lake Worth = ? The answers to your questions can get quite complicated. In state parks, you are not allowed to remove anything. Army corp land, artifacts are for sure out of the question, but they probably won't mind you taking a piece of petrified wood. Rivers and streams that fall into the legal public access rights, you are ok. You will probably get a different answer from a game warden that from a park officer. Just use good judgement. If you don't start doing a major dig, more than likely, no one will bother you. It never hurts to ask a ranger or make a phone call. From my experiences (which are limited to Texas), if you are respectful of the environment and other people you shouldn't have a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXHunter Posted August 4, 2009 Author Share Posted August 4, 2009 The answers to your questions can get quite complicated. In state parks, you are not allowed to remove anything. Army corp land, artifacts are for sure out of the question, but they probably won't mind you taking a piece of petrified wood. Rivers and streams that fall into the legal public access rights, you are ok. You will probably get a different answer from a game warden that from a park officer. Just use good judgement. If you don't start doing a major dig, more than likely, no one will bother you. It never hurts to ask a ranger or make a phone call. From my experiences (which are limited to Texas), if you are respectful of the environment and other people you shouldn't have a problem. Cool, that helps. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malexander Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 I can say for certain that on Texoma, fossil collecting IS NOT ALLOWED. I was not aware that collecting rocks from millions of years ago on a lake which is open to the public was illegal, but alas, it is. The game warden came to discuss the situation and not so politely said, "What makes you think you can take whatever you want from government property?" to which I replied, "It's illegal to collect fossils?" Sure enough his answer was affirmative... I did not get a fine or anything but was told to "get out of here." I offered to take the fossil back to its original location but he told me to leave it right where it was... lesson learned... Guess my 3 year old who LOVED to hunt fossils is an outlaw... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old dead things Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 (edited) I think I've answered this question more than several times on the forum. The BLM stance is that you can collect ONE invertebrate specimen for your private collection. You CAN NOT SELL any invertebrates taken from BLM lands. That said, I don't know how the BLM feels about trading that specimen, but any money involved is against their rules. I also do not know the BLM stand should you wish to collect a better specimen what you would do the the original one you collected. ABSOLUTELY no collecting of vertebrate fossils from BLM lands. If I find vertebrate fossils of significance I contact the local museum (OK JP, I'll plug the Tate Museum) that can get permits to collect the fossil for their repository. As a fossil dealer I know these laws inside out, I'm not taking any chances. I only collect on private land. And I double check landownership. Just because the rancher says it is his doesn't mean it is.......ask Black Hills Institute about that one (Sue). Also, the BLM and ranchers routinely trade land, so an old map might not be correct in showing ownership. It is a slippery slope. Most all road cuts belong to the state as they are in the state right of way, so check your state regulations. For state land in Wyoming, some areas can be collected such as petrified wood, but you are limited to the amount(I think it is 25 pounds). Also the state does lease fossil fish quarries (do you have an extra $10,000 or so in your fossil collecting budget). Last I knew there was still one quarry available. Also remember an artifact is man made and not a fossil. It is always illegal to pickup artifacts on BLM or State lands. Jim Old Dead Things Edited March 27, 2011 by old dead things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) I can say for certain that on Texoma, fossil collecting IS NOT ALLOWED. I was not aware that collecting rocks from millions of years ago on a lake which is open to the public was illegal, but alas, it is. The game warden came to discuss the situation and not so politely said, "What makes you think you can take whatever you want from government property?" to which I replied, "It's illegal to collect fossils?" Sure enough his answer was affirmative... I did not get a fine or anything but was told to "get out of here." I offered to take the fossil back to its original location but he told me to leave it right where it was... lesson learned... Guess my 3 year old who LOVED to hunt fossils is an outlaw... I wonder if the problem with this case is confusion on the part of the warden about the current definition of fossil. 100 years ago artifacts were called fossils and maybe references in old publications may cause the uninformed to assume that laws protecting artifacts should include what we call fossils today. I have been on official fossil hunts with the Dallas Paleontological Society on the shores of Lake Texoma and do not think they would make such a mistake. This would also explain why I keep hearing that it depends on who you ask at the Corps of Engineers whether you get permission or not. If this is a matter of fines or even being treated "not so politely" it warrants clarification perhaps a copy of the actual law in question that can be carried along on hunts to show to confused wardens or letters of permission from their superiors. There are also hunts by DPS at Lake Grapevine and Possum Kingdom. Also Jim, do you know if the same laws apply to BLM lands as CoE controlled areas? Edited March 28, 2011 by BobWill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Thanks for the Tate Museum plug, Jim. But I have to call you on the ONE invertebrate fossil thing. On BLM land you can collect inverts and leaves to your heart's delight, unless they are rare or unusual. I'm not sure that's the actual lines, but it is something incredibly vague and undefined. And the regs say no selling OR trading, which in my humble opinion is a load of... .As for Corps of engineers land...When I lived in northwest MT I looked into collecting along the edges of Fort Peck reservoir. There's Bearpaw Shale exposed there which in laces has ammonites. I was told it is illegal to collect any fossils on CoE lands. This inspried some under my breath cuss words, and I went away, and found ammonites and lobsters and several mosasurs (still there as far as I know) on BLM land. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefootgirl Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 The local news was talking to a game warden from Lake Texoma the other day and he said that it was illegal to remove anything from the islands located in the lake and surrounding lake area's. Supposedly the lake is eroding badly in places and they are trying to stop it. In formal logic, a contradiction is the signal of defeat: but in the evolution of real knowledge, it marks the first step in progress toward victory. Alfred North Whithead 'Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) The local news was talking to a game warden from Lake Texoma the other day and he said that it was illegal to remove anything from the islands located in the lake and surrounding lake area's. Supposedly the lake is eroding badly in places and they are trying to stop it. This is still confusing. Game wardens work for the state and the Corps controls the land. Game wardens enforce game-related issues. When you say something is illegal, shouldn't there be a specific law to reference? Is it good science to assume that removing a fossil from the bank of a lake would have a greater impact on erosion than simple wave action? I wouldn't want to contribute to erosion but can you always believe everything you hear on TV even from a game warden? Don't know the answers to any of this, just asking. Edited March 28, 2011 by BobWill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefootgirl Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 This is still confusing. Game wardens work for the state and the Corps controls the land. Game wardens enforce game-related issues. When you say something is illegal, shouldn't there be a specific law to reference? Is it good science to assume that removing a fossil from the bank of a lake would have a greater impact on erosion than simple wave action? I wouldn't want to contribute to erosion but can you always believe everything you hear on TV even from a game warden? Don't know the answers to any of this, just asking. Sorry, I actually meant a person from the corp. They were working on some of the islands. I've known people who got in trouble with both the game warden and the corps for removing things from local lakes. Especially when it comes to the Oklahoma corp guys. They don't mess around and will get you. In formal logic, a contradiction is the signal of defeat: but in the evolution of real knowledge, it marks the first step in progress toward victory. Alfred North Whithead 'Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Thanks for posting this BFG and malexander. If things have changed we all need to know. I just hope this is all just another "merry-mix-up" and we can go back to living on sugar mountain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rod Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Cant speak to any specifics as each case is most likely state specfic. However on a collecting trip to TN, a couple weeks back, we passed roadcuts that must have been owned by the Corp or Eng. I say this because there were signs all along the roadway notifying us that removing fossils, rocks, artifacts, plants, etc... was prohibited on all Corp land and violaters were subject to a 10K fine. Like I said thou, each state is different and warrants the research to prevent a costly mistake. - ROD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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