Echinoid? Coral?

[abyssunder]

On 8/9/2018 at 10:09 PM, GeschWhat said:

You never cease to amaze me! I should really start keeping track of how much I have learned from you.  

 

The bumps on Ophiomorpha would just look granular. 

Very kind words, Lori. Thank you for the appreciation!

[GeschWhat]

On 8/9/2018 at 2:25 PM, BuddingPaleo said:

It sure does look like it. So we're gonna go with ophiomorpha with hippoporida covering? Thanks so much everyone. Learned a TON! 

No, I think it is a piece of shell with Hippoporida  encrustation. If I understood correctly this type of bryozoa is a symbiont.

[abyssunder]

42 minutes ago, GeschWhat said:

No, I think it is a piece of shell with Hippoporida  encrustation. If I understood correctly this type of bryozoa is a symbiont.

Yep!

[abyssunder]

On 8/9/2018 at 4:59 AM, Plantguy said:

Another interesting thread. I'm wondering about the size for Hippoporida as Lori mentioned..seems very reasonable. I do have several gastropod overgrowth examples from the Tamiami Fm and the texture size is really really fine. I'll have to get a photo with scale. Here's a group pic of other specimens in a variety of shapes...I've not come up with ID's for them and planned to take a box of them to UF to see what I might learn from them... I'm guessing some bryozoans and maybe some are the hydrozoans.

I'm still also wondering about the underside of your specimen and what clues it holds/what it may show as I've collected quite a few similar specimens and many contain various invertebrate fragments/traces with similar textured overgrowths/colonies. Many dont seem to have any cavity/tube/burrow at all and yet have that lumpy/cauliflower look to them.. 

 

Does look like you've have a nice assortment of other finds to play with...congrats....

 

Regards, Chris 

 

Just came back from my "Miocene hunting", yesterday, and made the harvest of pelecipods, echinoids, gastropods, burrows for this season, in a one day trip.

 

Chris, I'm happy to see your amazing collection, everytime you post great comparative pictures. I think I have one of these creatures from what you sent to me last year (Apac Shell Pit, Tamiami fm., Sarasota, FL), and I don't hesitate to thank you again for that.

 

Came to my mind the term of Bryolith (bryozoan nodule). Here's an excerpt from P. Moissette et al. 2010. Pleistocene rolling stones or large bryozoan nodules in a mixed siliciclastic-carbonate environment (Rhodes, Greece). Palaios 25: 24-39 :

 

 

[BuddingPaleo]

54 minutes ago, GeschWhat said:

No, I think it is a piece of shell with Hippoporida  encrustation. If I understood correctly this type of bryozoa is a symbiont.

Nifty, wish I could tell what's under it. Thanks. 

[MikeR]

Compare your bryozoa to Schizoporella.  On the left from the Pinecrest Sand Member of the Tamiami Formation, Sarasota County, Florida and on the right recent from San Francisco Bay, California.

 

 

[Plantguy]

53 minutes ago, MikeR said:

Compare your bryozoa to Schizoporella.  On the left from the Pinecrest Sand Member of the Tamiami Formation, Sarasota County, Florida and on the right recent from San Francisco Bay, California.

 

 

Hey Mike, good stuff! I'm glad you were able to show that example of that genus as yesterday I was looking for references showing the bryozoans from the Pinecrest and saw one that does mention of both. I also have a Bryozoan thesis that doesnt mention Hippororidra within the bryozoans in a Tamiami location which also made me wonder.  By any chance have you  collected any of the Hippoporidra to show the difference or can explain the subtleties??... I aint smart enough to be able to distinguish the differences as that anatomy is a beyond me. ... Let me find the links and I'll post em...I've been also trying to take some close up of the zooids and patterns of mine and the phone camera is limited...I'll try some more this morning. Regards, Chris 

 

Edit...link to reference mentioning both genera in Special Pub 36 and specifically bed 11

http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00000140/00001/177?search=bryozoan

Here's a copy of the cover of the pdf for Bryozoan for the Tamimai but I dont see either genus in there and there are no pics and only

written descriptions and no single list of genera/species found..maybe I can produce one but it might take awhile...I'm out of my league so I'll wait for your response. Now I know why I remember abandoning this ID project with these crazy things...they are cool and hard to photograph and there is a level of expertise needed there that I'll never achieve. thanks! Regards, Chris 

Edited August 11, 2018 by Plantguy
Added links/screen shots mentioning bryozoan genera

[BuddingPaleo]

2 hours ago, MikeR said:

Compare your bryozoa to Schizoporella.  On the left from the Pinecrest Sand Member of the Tamiami Formation, Sarasota County, Florida and on the right recent from San Francisco Bay, California.

 

 

The only problem with that I see is mine doesn't have the circular patterns under microscope. Just the rectangular netting. But the overall macro appearance is quite similar. Thanks for the info! 

[MikeR]

On 8/11/2018 at 10:39 AM, Plantguy said:

Hey Mike, good stuff! I'm glad you were able to show that example of that genus as yesterday I was looking for references showing the bryozoans from the Pinecrest and saw one that does mention of both. I also have a Bryozoan thesis that doesnt mention Hippororidra within the bryozoans in a Tamiami location which also made me wonder.  By any chance have you  collected any of the Hippoporidra to show the difference or can explain the subtleties??... I aint smart enough to be able to distinguish the differences as that anatomy is a beyond me. ... Let me find the links and I'll post em...I've been also trying to take some close up of the zooids and patterns of mine and the phone camera is limited...I'll try some more this morning. Regards, Chris 

 

Edit...link to reference mentioning both genera in Special Pub 36 and specifically bed 11

http://ufdc.ufl.edu/UF00000140/00001/177?search=bryozoan

 

Here's a copy of the cover of the pdf for Bryozoan for the Tamimai but I dont see either genus in there and there are no pics and only

written descriptions and no single list of genera/species found..maybe I can produce one but it might take awhile...I'm out of my league so I'll wait for your response. Now I know why I remember abandoning this ID project with these crazy things...they are cool and hard to photograph and there is a level of expertise needed there that I'll never achieve. thanks! Regards, Chris 

 

 

Hi Chris

 

I am away visiting family and friends in Pennsylvania however I will look when I am home next week.  Looking at some of my lists it appears that I have Hippororidra from North Carolina and not Florida but I will confirm once I have access to my db.  As a warning however the study and identification of bryozoa is very specialized and difficult without magnification.  Most that I have identified are based upon macroscopic characteristics so they might not be correct.  That said Hippoporidra edax is quite distinctive and another one of those symbiotic associations that appear prevalent in the Pliocene, in this case gastropod shell, hermit crab and bryozoan LINK.

 

Mike

[Plantguy]

On 8/12/2018 at 11:11 AM, MikeR said:

 

Hi Chris

 

I am away visiting family and friends in Pennsylvania however I will look when I am home next week.  Looking at some of my lists it appears that I have Hippororidra from North Carolina and not Florida but I will confirm once I have access to my db.  As a warning however the study and identification of bryozoa is very specialized and difficult without magnification.  Most that I have identified are based upon macroscopic characteristics so they might not be correct.  That said Hippoporidra edax is quite distinctive and another one of those symbiotic associations that appear prevalent in the Pliocene, in this case gastropod shell, hermit crab and bryozoan LINK.

 

Mike

Thanks Mike...looking forward to what you find in your collections!

I understand the difficulty of fooling with these guys but the curiousity factor of what buddingpaleo has and knowing what I have drives me a bit nuts. If I could only photograph what I have clearly I think it would help the discussion-...I'll keep trying.

So, I found this pub accidentally when I followed your link and was looking at pics of the gastropods--It has really great pictures of Hippoporidra edax.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313628937_BRYOZOANS_FROM_THE_LOWER_MIOCENE_CHIPOLA_FORMATION_CALHOUN_COUNTY_FLORIDA_USA

180 BULLETIN FLORIDA MUSEUM NATURAL HISTORY VOL. 53

Truncated Figure 59. Hippoporidra edax (Busk, 1859). A–E. UF 265730. A. general view of a multilaminar colony fragment; B. autozooids and large interzooidal avicularia; C. autozooids and interzooidal avicularia of different sizes; D. close-up of an orice; E. close-up of a large interzooidal avicularium with pointed rostrum, raised lateral wings and median ligula. F, G. UF 190509, autozooids with small adventitious avicularia. Scale bars: A = 1 mm; B, C = 200 μm; D, E = 20 μm; F, G = 100 μm

I think I have several examples of this species and I think it does look very different than what buddingpaleo has...

 

So I attempted to take photos of some of the others I have that look closer to what she has and many seem to be very simple in structure/form compared to the Hippoporidra above.  Unfortunately they are very worn down but I think match what buddingpaleo has...Here are two views from one side of my sample and a single view of the other side which shows more of a netlike structure. 

These might be the Schizoporella that you mentioned? 

 

Oh geez, its past my bedtime again and I'm whooped...more thoughts and pics maybe tomorrow after work. 

Regards, Chris 

[MikeR]

Hi Chris

 

Made it home and looking at my database now.  I did not know until I ran a query but I have quite a few specimens of Hippoporidra edax with representation from a number of Plio-Pleistocene units including:  Golden Gate Member of the Tamiami, Moore House Member of the Yorktown, Duplin, Edenhouse Member of the Chowan River, Waccamaw, James City, and Caloosahatchee Formations as well as recent beach drift from Palm Beach County, Florida.  All of the ids however were based upon encrustation of gastropod shells as shown in the below pic from the Upper Pliocene Duplin Formation, Bladen County, North Carolina.

 

 

[Plantguy]

4 hours ago, MikeR said:

Hi Chris

 

Made it home and looking at my database now.  I did not know until I ran a query but I have quite a few specimens of Hippoporidra edax with representation from a number of Plio-Pleistocene units including:  Golden Gate Member of the Tamiami, Moore House Member of the Yorktown, Duplin, Edenhouse Member of the Chowan River, Waccamaw, James City, and Caloosahatchee Formations as well as recent beach drift from Palm Beach County, Florida.  All of the ids however were based upon encrustation of gastropod shells as shown in the below pic from the Upper Pliocene Duplin Formation, Bladen County, North Carolina.

 

 

Hey Mike, appreciate your digging thru your files. Thanks! Quite a collection!

I've got a few gastropods that seem to match these from the old APAC site in Sarasota. I only have a hand magnifier but for some odd reason these guys seem to be an order of size smaller than most of the other examples I have and what Buddingpaleo has. Could simply be the degree of preservation but this is conjecture on my part.  I think I'm done speculating and beating this to death for the moment--I'm out of my element without the proper camera/scope, training and its again past my bedtime! Appreciate your help. 

 

Regards, Chris 

[BuddingPaleo]

10 hours ago, Plantguy said:

Hey Mike, appreciate your digging thru your files. Thanks! Quite a collection!

I've got a few gastropods that seem to match these from the old APAC site in Sarasota. I only have a hand magnifier but for some odd reason these guys seem to be an order of size smaller than most of the other examples I have and what Buddingpaleo has. Could simply be the degree of preservation but this is conjecture on my part.  I think I'm done speculating and beating this to death for the moment--I'm out of my element without the proper camera/scope, training and its again past my bedtime! Appreciate your help. 

 

Regards, Chris 

In regard to a microscope, I skeptically took a leap on this one. I don't regret it.  (Couldnt shorten the link, sorry)  https://www.amscope.com/200x-8-led-usb-digital-microscope-endoscope-xp-vista-7-8-mac.html?medium=tsa&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvZvHgI7v3AIVE4GzCh1qAQ87EAkYDCABEgIq5_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Plantguy]

On 8/10/2018 at 6:19 PM, abyssunder said:

 

Just came back from my "Miocene hunting", yesterday, and made the harvest of pelecipods, echinoids, gastropods, burrows for this season, in a one day trip.

 

Chris, I'm happy to see your amazing collection, everytime you post great comparative pictures. I think I have one of these creatures from what you sent to me last year (Apac Shell Pit, Tamiami fm., Sarasota, FL), and I don't hesitate to thank you again for that.

 

Came to my mind the term of Bryolith (bryozoan nodule). Here's an excerpt from P. Moissette et al. 2010. Pleistocene rolling stones or large bryozoan nodules in a mixed siliciclastic-carbonate environment (Rhodes, Greece). Palaios 25: 24-39 :

 

 

Hey Lori, forgot to respond to your post awhile back. I've seen mention of some bryozoan rich layers in the Tamiami Fm here and I'm wondering if some of what I found were derived from that...all of these are spoil finds and not insitu so I'll never know.  I had seen the term bryolith before but really never thought much about it as I hadnt seen any in the field...Based on your post I have been rooting around in the garage boxes looking for some more bryozoan examples from Sarasota and found a few larger specimens to look at more closely. Hoping to get some time to investigate them more closely. Glad to hear you got out hunting!

Regards, Chris 

[Plantguy]

On 8/15/2018 at 9:07 AM, BuddingPaleo said:

In regard to a microscope, I skeptically took a leap on this one. I don't regret it.  (Couldnt shorten the link, sorry)  https://www.amscope.com/200x-8-led-usb-digital-microscope-endoscope-xp-vista-7-8-mac.html?medium=tsa&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIvZvHgI7v3AIVE4GzCh1qAQ87EAkYDCABEgIq5_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Thanks..I'm still holding out for a more serious scope but the dang major home repairs keep getting in the way of that indulgence. I seem to recall playing with that little guy you linked and I wanted more from it but your photos look good. Here's my latest that I found in my Tamiami Fm. garage piles taken with my camera phone and magnifying glass...Specimen is about 4.5cm wide . I'm still trying to figure out how to capture the zooid details when they are all broken up like on most of the specimens I have. 

Continued hunting success! 

 

Regards, Chris 

[abyssunder]

On 8/19/2018 at 4:36 AM, Plantguy said:

Hey Lori, forgot to respond to your post awhile back. I've seen mention of some bryozoan rich layers in the Tamiami Fm here and I'm wondering if some of what I found were derived from that...all of these are spoil finds and not insitu so I'll never know.  I had seen the term bryolith before but really never thought much about it as I hadnt seen any in the field...Based on your post I have been rooting around in the garage boxes looking for some more bryozoan examples from Sarasota and found a few larger specimens to look at more closely. Hoping to get some time to investigate them more closely. Glad to hear you got out hunting!

Regards, Chris 

Hey Chris, you have a goldmine there in your collection! Thanks for posting them!
Bryoliths are "Rolling Stones", nicely said by the authors mentioned before.

It was a hard, quick, but good hunt for me, while I introduced a friend in the thema. She was happy seeing the Miocene fossils. I'm happy the site is not declared a paleontological type nature reserve with  IUCN  code, so it's "unknown", but rich in fossils.
Happy we were saving some specimens.