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WhodamanHD

Symphyseal Otodus?

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WhodamanHD

Seeing this online, one of the hundreds of patho otoduses that come out of Morocco, but I have a suspicion this is a Symphyseal tooth, note the offset root. They thought he same on the parasymphyseal FB group (strange such a thing exists) But, I am not sure, you guys know? It’s not expensive, and I think symphs are cool.

86F9B9B4-45B5-48DA-B02E-A668DF43696E.jpeg

8E9BD277-41FB-4815-B9D9-DE65570B4DC5.jpeg

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ynot

With the curve of the crown and oversized root I would think it more likely a posterior tooth.

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Troodon

My vote is Pathological, with that bulge to the root, which are very common to this species.

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WhodamanHD

@Troodon @ynot @MarcoSr

 

Thank you you all for your insights, this is definitely a strange tooth! I bought it, it was around ten dollars. I don’t own any pathological otodus, so if it turns out to be one I won’t be unhappy. Do any of you know of any paleontologists who specialize in parasymphyseals that I could ask? Not that your expertise’s are not great, I just want to see what a researcher might say.

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ynot
45 minutes ago, WhodamanHD said:

. Do any of you know of any paleontologists who specialize in parasymphyseals that I could ask?

Sorry - no.

@MarcoSr is My go to Guy.

@Al Dente and @siteseer are also very knowledgeable.

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siteseer
2 hours ago, ynot said:

Sorry - no.

@MarcoSr is My go to Guy.

@Al Dente and @siteseer are also very knowledgeable.

 

Hi Tony,

 

I don't think anyone really specializes in particular tooth positions but David Ward and Mikael Siverson would be two researchers to ask. 

 

Yeah, MarcoSr and Al Dente would be go-to guys for me as well.  I would add isurus90064 and Sagacious to my blue ribbon panel too.

 

Jess

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Macrophyseter

Sorry to butt in, but does anyone have a paper regarding a dental analysis of Otodus or Carcharocles published after Applegate and Espinosa-Arrubarrena (1996)? I keep hearing about people finding symphysial teeth of Otodus and Carcharocles although I can't really find a paper mentioning that, and I'm kind of confused.

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siteseer
3 hours ago, WhodamanHD said:

@Troodon @ynot @MarcoSr

 

Thank you you all for your insights, this is definitely a strange tooth! I bought it, it was around ten dollars. I don’t own any pathological otodus, so if it turns out to be one I won’t be unhappy. Do any of you know of any paleontologists who specialize in parasymphyseals that I could ask? Not that your expertise’s are not great, I just want to see what a researcher might say.

 

My advice to anyone seeing a cheap oddball tooth for sale is buy it.  Yeah, it helps if you've seen enough teeth to know what's truly unusual.  You will get an idea of something weird even if it's coated with a thin coating of matrix.  

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siteseer
3 minutes ago, Macrophyseter said:

Sorry to butt in, but does anyone have a paper regarding a dental analysis of Otodus or Carcharocles published after Applegate and Espinosa-Arrubarrena (1996)? I keep hearing about people finding symphysial teeth of Otodus and Carcharocles although I can't really find a paper mentioning that, and I'm kind of confused.

 

No, I don't know of a technical paper offhand detailing that but a collector can read between the lines when you read various papers by Shimada (as you show) and Siverson.  You see what forms parasymphyseal teeth can take and you apply that knowledge to what you see of Otodus and Carcharocles teeth.  There are definitely teeth that appear to be parasympyseals of those genera.

 

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Macrophyseter

Got it. Thanks!

 

19 minutes ago, siteseer said:

(as you show)

that was an accidental upload which the uploader kept automatically posting even after I removed it, I had to delete the post entirely to get rid of it. Sorry if that unrelated picture confused you.

 

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siteseer

If pressed for an opinion, I would go pathologic but also wonder if it could be an intermediate tooth of a juvenile/young adult.

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WhodamanHD
7 hours ago, siteseer said:

 

Hi Tony,

 

I don't think anyone really specializes in particular tooth positions but David Ward and Mikael Siverson would be two researchers to ask. 

 

Yeah, MarcoSr and Al Dente would be go-to guys for me as well.  I would add isurus90064 and Sagacious to my blue ribbon panel too.

 

Jess

Thank you Jess for your input, I’m just thinking know that I’ve never seen a juvenile a Otodus. I saw this tooth for sale a few months ago but have been fretting, but I’d seen a few Carcharocles symphs recently and thought it was worth asking the forum.

I’ll tag them as well:

@MikaelS @sagacious @isurus90064

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WhodamanHD

I must say I wondered if this was a Parotodus or an alopiid when I first saw it.

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WhodamanHD

I still wonder if it’s a Parotodus Symphyseal, here’s two @MarcoSr

posted a while back. It looks like mine could be somewhere in the middle, though the blade in mine is quite a bit thicker and lacks cusps (thought they could be worn off)

84519242-DD90-42B2-ACF8-47E0CFD5FA73.jpeg

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MarcoSr
18 hours ago, siteseer said:

 

I don't think anyone really specializes in particular tooth positions but David Ward and Mikael Siverson would be two researchers to ask. 

 

 

 

David Ward probably has over a hundred parasymphyseal teeth from Morocco so I would definitely contact him.

 

Marco Sr.

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MarcoSr
9 hours ago, WhodamanHD said:

I still wonder if it’s a Parotodus Symphyseal, here’s two @MarcoSr

posted a while back. It looks like mine could be somewhere in the middle, though the blade in mine is quite a bit thicker and lacks cusps (thought they could be worn off)

84519242-DD90-42B2-ACF8-47E0CFD5FA73.jpeg

 

These teeth are in the collection of Patrick D. from Belgium, a good friend of mine.  Patrick believes they are from Parotodus based upon what Pierre Zenarro (a legendary Moroccan collector) told him.  Pierre said that because a number of associated Otodus dentitions have been found in Morrocco and none of them contained parasymphyseals he did not feel that they were from Otodus so Parotodus would be the next logical choice.   However, I am convinced from teeth in my families' collection and other teeth that I have seen that the entire Otodus lineage had parasymphyseal teeth.  Every individual shark may not have had them but some individuals definitely did.

 

Marco Sr.

 

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WhodamanHD
2 hours ago, MarcoSr said:

 

 

David Ward probably has over a hundred parasymphyseal teeth from Morocco so I would definitely contact him.

 

Marco Sr.

I don’t know quite how to contact him, though I would love to ask.

 

1 hour ago, MarcoSr said:

 

These teeth are in the collection of Patrick D. from Belgium, a good friend of mine.  Patrick believes they are from Parotodus based upon what Pierre Zenarro (a legendary Moroccan collector) told him.  Pierre said that because a number of associated Otodus dentitions have been found in Morrocco and none of them contained parasymphyseals he did not feel that they were from Otodus so Parotodus would be the next logical choice.   However, I am convinced from teeth in my families' collection and other teeth that I have seen that the entire Otodus lineage had parasymphyseal teeth.  Every individual shark may not have had them but some individuals definitely did.

 

Marco Sr.

 

Okay, so those are more likely Otodus Symphyseals in your view? I’ve never had doubts that Otodus and it’s descendents had symphs, and Parotodus is an otodontid now, so one would suppose it is likely that if one did, both did. 

 

1 hour ago, Gizmo said:

I will! Forgot he was easier to contact. One wonders why Dr. Kent is in the entomology department? Anyway, I’ll send him an email shortly.

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WhodamanHD

@Gizmo @ynot @MarcoSr @Macrophyseter @siteseer @Troodon@WhodamanHD 

 

Sent an email to Dr. Bretton Kent, he responded today and very kindly gave his assessment which was:

Mason -- That's certainly an interesting looking tooth. My overall impression is of a pathological tooth, given (1) the misshapen root with mesiodistal compression of the lobes, (2) a lingual protuberance that has been displaced mesially and (3) the strongly arched crown. I think that most likely damage occurred to the portion of the tooth germ that would normally form the mesial portion of the root (circle on attached photo). Scar tissue produced by such damage (e.g, a sting ray spine) would disrupt the activities of developmental genes, such as sonic hedgehog (shh) and the Dlx family (probably Dlx 5 and Dlx 6), which are critical determinants of tooth shape. Position within the jaw is always difficult to determine for pathological teeth, since normal tooth development has been disrupted and tooth shape is quite abnormal. My best guess for this tooth would somewhere in the distal (= posterior) half of the jaw. I think a symphyseal position is unlikely since lamniform symphyseals form in very restricted areas of the jaw producing narrow teeth with an erect crown. The strongly displaced crown of this tooth would be difficult, although not impossible, to fit into such a confined space. I hope this helps.  Brett”

 

 

5F910701-3560-4306-BE36-A8415FA408DD.jpeg

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WhodamanHD

That makes sense to me, it is another vote for a posterior patho. Any objectors?

If I could get ahold of David Ward I’d like to see what he says as well. I think it would be interesting to see if it’s the same. Funnily enough, I have both Kent and Ward’s books.

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MarcoSr
On 8/20/2018 at 8:56 PM, WhodamanHD said:

Okay, so those are more likely Otodus Symphyseals in your view? I’ve never had doubts that Otodus and it’s descendents had symphs, and Parotodus is an otodontid now, so one would suppose it is likely that if one did, both did.

 

I believe both Otodus and Parotodus had parasymphyseal teeth.  So they could be from either genus.  However there are many more Otodus than Parotodus teeth found in Morocco.  So probability would strongly favor Otodus.

 

Marco Sr.

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