Turtle Shell Fragment (With Spike) Peace River Formation

[alej9582]

Hi guys me again,

 

Anyone knows of a turtle with spikes on the Miocene of Florida?

 

Regards,

Alex

[Tidgy's Dad]

I don't think they're 'spikes', as such, just where pieces of the ribs are fused to the shell material.

Very nice. 

 

[Fossildude19]

   

 

 

Images from HERE.

[Peat Burns]

Yup, I was going to say Trionychidae (although dorsal surface doesn't seem right for that?).  I think Tim might have it with Chelydra.

[alej9582]

@Fossildude19 So there is no way to identify it to a genius I suppose?

[alej9582]

Oh cool!!

[Fossildude19]

3 minutes ago, alej9582 said:

@Fossildude19 So there is no way to identify it to a genius I suppose?

I am not a bone guy, at all. 

Some of the regulars in the area might know:

 

@Harry Pristis  @jcbshark  @Shellseeker  @Sacha

[jcbshark]

I think they’re likley soft shell turtle carapace pieces but not sure if some other turtles share this 

[Sacha]

I agree with Jeff. It is soft shell turtle, but beyond that I can't specify.

[Al Dente]

The smooth bone would make me guess sea turtle over soft shell.

 

 

[Shellseeker]

We find a fair amount of these distinctive shell part in the Peace River..

3 hours ago, Al Dente said:

The smooth bone would make me guess sea turtle over soft shell.

https://www.indiana9fossils.com/product/sm-soft-shelled-turtle-section-5/

I always thought they were SoftShells, but willing to consider other possibilities. 

[alej9582]

@Shellseeker Regarding the smoothness of the shell and the rectangular shape, do you think it could be aquatic? Found shark teeth alonside but in Florida it is dificult to date things acuratedly based on deposition. Specially when found on a stream.

[Sacha]

The size of your piece says soft-shell. I'm not aware of any sea turtle fossils coming from the Peace other than small geometric bits tentatively identified by Hulbert as potential leatherback. We find lots of bits like yours, smooth on the inside and variably textured on the outside. Some are fossil, but many are recent and identical.

[Harry Pristis]

For comparison:

 

 

[Shellseeker]

5 hours ago, alej9582 said:

@Shellseeker Regarding the smoothness of the shell and the rectangular shape, do you think it could be aquatic? Found shark teeth alongside but in Florida it is difficult to date things accurately based on deposition. Specially when found on a stream.

 

Definitely aquatic, whether softshell or sea turtle.  As Sacha notes, even if softshell turtle , it may be modern.

 

4 hours ago, Sacha said:

The size of your piece says soft-shell. I'm not aware of any sea turtle fossils coming from the Peace other than small geometric bits tentatively identified by Hulbert as potential leatherback. We find lots of bits like yours, smooth on the inside and variably textured on the outside. Some are fossil, but many are recent and identical.

 

Curious, I know that I have read a paper about sea turtles in Bone Valley... Maybe what Hulbert is saying that they can exist in the mines but not in the Peace River because they are early Pliocene.

Fossil Sea Turtles from the Early Pliocene Bone Valley Formation, Central Florida

C. Kenneth Dodd, Jr. and Gary S. Morgan

Journal of Herpetology

Vol. 26, No. 1 (Mar., 1992), pp. 1-8

**********************************

So, we get fresh water turtles and land tortoise only in the Peace.  See Harry's post. I am curious why some softshell has distinctive patterns and some not...

 

9 hours ago, Al Dente said:

The smooth bone would make me guess sea turtle over soft shell.

 

 

 

I initially did not understand Al Dente's point. From Harry's photo, very distinctive patterns. Why are those patterns missing on this fossil.. Excellent question.

[alej9582]

@Shellseeker @Harry Pristis I think that is a great question. This two guys couldn't be smoother, there are no undulations as you see in common shells and scutes. Please note that this shell fragments where collected in the Bone Valley but not in the Peace River (was overflown so there was no way to get near it).  I downloaded KLM format map of the formation into my google earth, and went scouting for locality as mentioned above the Peace was impossible. Slightly east of Gardner, FL. To say it was a creek is an overstatement. Close to no water, about 10 feet below ground level. Interesting enough at the other side of the fence in private property there where mounds of gravel with grass growth, could indicate old mining activity but cant confirm nor saw company signs to that effect.

 

Regards,

Alex

[Harry Pristis]

These smooth bits are carapace pieces from water turtles -- cooters, sliders, et al.  I think they are not identifiable to genus and species.  Some are recent, some no doubt are fossil.  I'm sure that these turtles have always been popular with the alligators.

 

 

[Al Dente]

19 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said:

These smooth bits are plastral pieces from water turtles -- cooters, sliders, et al.  I think they are not identifiable to genus and species.

Are you referring to the original bone posted in this thread? Definitely not a piece of the plastron and not a cooter or slider. They lack the spike (rib) that protrudes from the end of the pleural bone.

[alej9582]

18 minutes ago, Al Dente said:

Are you referring to the original bone posted in this thread? Definitely not a piece of the plastron and not a cooter or slider. They lack the spike (rib) that protrudes from the end of the pleural bone.

 I think he is referring to the pictures below, the original. Let me know is this is the spine you mention @Al Dente.

[Al Dente]

Here are some sea turtle pleural bones from my collection. I think yours is similar.

[alej9582]

10 minutes ago, Al Dente said:

Here are some sea turtle pleural bones from my collection. I think yours is similar.

The one on the left is very simmilar but broken before the bone. Thanks @Al Dente

[Peat Burns]

2 hours ago, alej9582 said:

The one on the left is very simmilar but broken before the bone. Thanks @Al Dente

As I indicated earlier, snapping turtle (Chelydra serpentina) is another one with which to compare.  Here is a pleural (recent from an identity-confirmed skeleton), distal end, from my collection. Scale in mm.

 

I don't think what you have is soft shell

[Harry Pristis]

3 hours ago, Al Dente said:

Are you referring to the original bone posted in this thread? Definitely not a piece of the plastron and not a cooter or slider. They lack the spike (rib) that protrudes from the end of the pleural bone.

 

I blew that answer, for sure.  The original bone is certainly a carapacial element, not plastral.  After a little research, I agree that it does resemble the severely-worn carapacial elements of marine turtles.  I wonder if we are looking at this bone in reverse of its position in life.  Maybe the "spike" is actually the attachment to the vertebral column.  That would explain the spike on Peat Burns' Chelyda specimen.  I'm going to edit my original response so that no one is misled about the plastron/carapace.

 

 

[Peat Burns]

The "spike" on my specimen is the distal end that attaches to the peripherals.

[alej9582]

@Peat Burns @Harry Pristis @Al Dente You guys have no Idea how grateful I am that you are helping on this. I'm used to Triassic rocks and since I moved down to Florida I am beginning to appreciate this more recent specimens (and lack of rocks, dust and power tools lol). This is fossil paradise! I ordered Butvar 98 by mistake, sent it back and reorder 76 which is soluble in acetone (98 became silly putty on acetone ). The pieces are currently drying in full so that I can use the B76 when it arrives.

 

Thanks again,

Alex