Wolf89 Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 I'm not sure if this should go in the native American section or not, so mods feel free to move it. I've seen mention that native Americans using fossil shark teeth as arrow heads and pendants and I've seen that they look actually like the tooth in question like where they put the string. That would be super cool if that's what this is. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailingAlongToo Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 @Jniederkorn thoughts? 1 Don't know much about history Don't know much biology Don't know much about science books......... Sam Cooke - (What A) Wonderful World Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailingAlongToo Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 Check this paper out. https://www.academia.edu/4468079/INTEGRATED_GEOLOGY_PALEONTOLOGY_AND_ARCHAEOLOGY_NATIVE_AMERICAN_USE_OF_FOSSIL_SHARK_TEETH_IN_THE_CHESAPEAKE_BAY_REGION 4 Don't know much about history Don't know much biology Don't know much about science books......... Sam Cooke - (What A) Wonderful World Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted December 4, 2018 Author Share Posted December 4, 2018 This looks nearly identical and is from the above paper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailingAlongToo Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 1 minute ago, Wolf89 said: This looks nearly identical and is from the above paper I will say, Drs. Godfrey and Eshelman are 1st class scientists. 1 Don't know much about history Don't know much biology Don't know much about science books......... Sam Cooke - (What A) Wonderful World Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted December 4, 2018 Author Share Posted December 4, 2018 3 minutes ago, SailingAlongToo said: I will say, Drs. Godfrey and Eshelman are 1st class scientists. So you think there is a good chance this one would be an artifact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SailingAlongToo Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 Not really sure. If you notice, the photo you posted from the paper shows "notching" in the root, above the blade. Yours clearly shows the blade broken in the corners to make the grooves. I posted the paper to give you some scientific info on the subject. We (Mrs.SA2 & I) have numerous straight teeth from the Chesapeake Bay region with grooves at the root/blade seam. Only 1 do we "think" might have been used as a "tool". The nice lady I tagged has a tooth many folks think was used as a tool. Hopefully, she will respond & post a photo of hers. I would email photos of your tooth to Dr. Stephen Godfrey and give him all the particulars including location of the find. You can find his email at Calvert Marine Museum's website. He will show the photos to Dr. Eshelman. Cheers! 3 Don't know much about history Don't know much biology Don't know much about science books......... Sam Cooke - (What A) Wonderful World Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 I think this tooth is neither a pendant nor a human-modified point. The boring is off-center, and no self-respecting NA would make that mistake. Furthermore, used as a dart point, the root of the tooth would impede penetration of the target. Note that the "ears" have been removed from the tooth from the publication. 9 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 There are probably pholad borings, so the tooth might have bioerosion markings. There is more then one boring in the tooth root. Here are two similar ones. 3 " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sixgill pete Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 I agree with @Harry Pristis and @abyssunder. Most likely pholad borings. That is holes from boring clams in the family Pholadidae. 1 Bulldozers and dirt Bulldozers and dirt behind the trailer, my desert Them red clay piles are heaven on earth I get my rocks off, bulldozers and dirt Patterson Hood; Drive-By Truckers May 2016 May 2012 Aug 2013, May 2016, Apr 2020 Oct 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrR Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 I am very new to the shark-tooth world, and the fossil world in general. However, I can't help seeing that this tooth could have been worn as a pendant. While it looks different, i.e. less refined, than the one in the referenced paper, the "feel" of it is not so dissimilar to my, admittedly untrained, eye. Is it possible that said difference is just a matter of style? Or that an early native thousands of years ago picked up such a tooth, complete with borings, and liked that they could pass some rawhide, sinew, gut, etc., through it without having to do the boring themselves? It's probably a moot point, but I do see a resemblance between the two images that make me believe it would at least be somewhat possible. Every society has perfectionist makers of usable things, who live in the neighborhood of those who perhaps see more value in naturally occurring utility, i.e., ease of use, right? While it seems unlikely to ever be able to prove this piece was was worn as fashion, rather than merely being worn (as in eroded) in a suggestive way, it is interesting to leave it open to that possibility. If it was just the boring holes, I'd think it was a happy coincidence. And it's true that any small thing with a hole passed th through it, that has some cool appeal, could be used as a pendant. However, with the pass-through hole(s), as well as the fairly symmetrical chipped away cusp area, I'm seeing at least some chance of it being an adornment of some sort, by someone, at some time. Heck, maybe it was found and worn in the 1940's? Then again...? Regardless, it's a nice specimen. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 The only way this could be considered an artifact is if it had been found in context (Burial or village site- removed from fossil sites). As it is the only thing that can be said is it may look like an artifact but nature likes to fool us. Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 4 hours ago, MrR said: However, with the pass-through hole(s), as well as the fairly symmetrical chipped away cusp area, I'm seeing at least some chance of it being an adornment of some sort, by someone, at some time. I think you could make your own dream come true: You should wear this around your neck. That way, it'll will become a pendant. Be certain to finish the pholadid burrow so that there is no sharp edge to cut your cordage. In doing so, you will have turned the tooth into an artifact . . . Not a Native American artifact, of course, but a modern SoCal artifact. 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf89 Posted December 4, 2018 Author Share Posted December 4, 2018 2 hours ago, MrR said: While it looks different, i.e. less refined, than the one in the referenced paper, Well a factor for that would that this one was found 2 states below where the paper is based in. The Native Americans can be different and have differing styles. That's just some of my thoughts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 36 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said: Be certain to finish the pholadid burrow so that there is no sharp edge to cut your cordage. " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Tahan Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 The hardest part about science is trying to set aside our human emotion, beliefs and conformational biases. While we can't technically disprove it wasn't an artifact, we also can't prove that it is. There are some similarities, but also large differences. Im going deep into this real quick....This is how I go about critical thinking when I see something like this with science. Think about a murder investigation..what if we had to link somebody to a murder by proving that was a native american artifact? The family trying to get justice wants to believe they found the murderer and that tooth is indeed a pendant. The family of the accused does not think you can link the tooth to being a artifact because of the above discussed. Each person can sit and argue all day because they both have at least something they can relate to to fit their view. What if you were accused?? Do you still believe its an artifact? Your emotional investment in the question will dictate your answer. Our brains are so flawed as humans we can dictate more than we imagine just because we wish something to be so....we will find a way for it to be so. My take: looks suspicious....but I also know nothing about shark teeth and its relation to native american artifacts. Based on what I read above it would be cool if it was an artifact but I don't think it is. We can't come up with a whole new tribe of native american shark tooth artifacts to fit the new tooth shape so that it fits our view. See how easy it is to trap yourself with emotional investment?? This applies to science and life. Just a fun thought experiment!! Al 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrR Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 Thanks for the fashion advice and cordage-cutting wit, Harry Pristis. Seriously though, even when I was a 15 year-old surf-grom, I wouldn't have worn a shark tooth around this precious neck. True, I did have a set of wooden beads strung on leather, but it was a short phase I went through, and they had nothing but rounded edges. I do see a lot of shark-tooth necklaces being offered for sale. If nobody outside of North-Central Florida is buying them , there must be a monstrous glut out there. Believe me though, I won't be helping decrease any such glut. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrR Posted December 4, 2018 Share Posted December 4, 2018 BTW: If that tooth was mine, and I was to offer it for sale, I wouldn't be describing it as a necklace or anything. I agree that it has no provable basis in fact. I apologize to the OP for pulling the thread off-topic. Cheers. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Tahan Posted December 5, 2018 Share Posted December 5, 2018 Its all healthy discussion no need to apologize 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickNC Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 This one is bored dead center. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossil-Hound Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 On 12/4/2018 at 4:50 PM, Al Tahan said: The hardest part about science is trying to set aside our human emotion, beliefs and conformational biases. While we can't technically disprove it wasn't an artifact, we also can't prove that it is. There are some similarities, but also large differences. Im going deep into this real quick....This is how I go about critical thinking when I see something like this with science. Think about a murder investigation..what if we had to link somebody to a murder by proving that was a native american artifact? The family trying to get justice wants to believe they found the murderer and that tooth is indeed a pendant. The family of the accused does not think you can link the tooth to being a artifact because of the above discussed. Each person can sit and argue all day because they both have at least something they can relate to to fit their view. What if you were accused?? Do you still believe its an artifact? Your emotional investment in the question will dictate your answer. Our brains are so flawed as humans we can dictate more than we imagine just because we wish something to be so....we will find a way for it to be so. My take: looks suspicious....but I also know nothing about shark teeth and its relation to native american artifacts. Based on what I read above it would be cool if it was an artifact but I don't think it is. We can't come up with a whole new tribe of native american shark tooth artifacts to fit the new tooth shape so that it fits our view. See how easy it is to trap yourself with emotional investment?? This applies to science and life. Just a fun thought experiment!! Al Wow that was deep and I enjoyed reading this long blurb. Your comment; "but I also know nothing about shark teeth and its relation to native american artifacts." literally made me laugh out loud. I do agree with @SailingAlongToo that Dr. Godfrey should be able to shed some light on the subject. 1 Do or do not. There is no try. - Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Tahan Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 @fossilhound2015 ha thanks! Little fun in critical thinking lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 21 hours ago, RickNC said: This one is bored dead center. That's another nice example of multiple boring in a considered to be lithic substrate. " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrR Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 Coincidentally, I found another image of a nicely centered bore through a shark tooth's root. It's about 1/2 way down the page on Mark Renz' site, in his "Sloth" section. Thinking it may have been an artifact, he turned it over to the proper authorities in Florida. Excitement of Bored Meg Tooth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abyssunder Posted December 8, 2018 Share Posted December 8, 2018 I'm wondering what was the conclusion of the specialist from FMNH? Drill hole for sure, but from who? " We are not separate and independent entities, but like links in a chain, and we could not by any means be what we are without those who went before us and showed us the way. " Thomas Mann My Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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