Seguidora-de-Isis Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Hello! Good afternoon for all my big family here in TFF ! I'm thinking of buying this Woolly Rhinoceros Tooth Fossil. But please, I would like to ask some questions before my purchase: 01) Can this Woolly Rhinoceros Tooth Fossil be a real fossil or is it a modern with mud and cement? 02) Anyone know what species of Woolly Rhinoceros exactly belongs this Tooth? 03) According to the seller (Yes, the seller is Chinese), this Tooth was discovered in Heilongjiang Province, China (20000 years - Pleistocene)... Does anyone know if this locality is correct, or is it another Mongolian tooth disguised as Chinese? I thank you for all the help I can get. @Crazyhen 1 Is It real, or it's not real, that's the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willy Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 "the seller is Chinese" is a big red flag. Hard to tell if it is real by looking at a picture. It is a gamble in my opinion to buy this tooth thinking it is real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gigantoraptor Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Looks real, there are a couple of imperfections (small pieces of the rooth...) but it's a very nice tooth. I wouldn't know why they would make a fake tooth with imperfections. Did anyone on here ever saw a fake rhino tooth? As far as I know, there are four genera of Early and Middle Pleistocene rhino's in China. Elasmotherium, Coelodonta, Rhinoceros and Dicerorhinus. I know nothing about the last one, only that it exists. If the age on your tooth is correct (which I don't know) it rules out Elasmotherium since they are not known from the late Pleistocene of China. There are multiple species of the others known from the late Pleistocene of China, but since the big number of locations they are found I don't know if it's possible to know for sure what location this tooth is from. Good luck on finding the true identity. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 44 minutes ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said: 01) Can this Woolly Rhinoceros Tooth Fossil be a real fossil or is it a modern with mud and cement? 02) Anyone know what species of Woolly Rhinoceros exactly belongs this Tooth? 03) According to the seller (Yes, the seller is Chinese), this Tooth was discovered in Heilongjiang Province, China (20000 years - Pleistocene)... Does anyone know if this locality is correct, or is it another Mongolian tooth disguised as Chinese? 01) The patina and damage to root/enamel makes me believe this is an actual fossil Woolly Rhino tooth with 90% certainty. If this is a fabrication, I will learn something new. Your tooth is a lower. Photo below of Florida Rhino, NOT wooley 02) I believe that this is only one Woolly Rhino species: Coelodonta antiquitatis 03) Asia and specifically China had Woolly Rhinos in the Pleistocene. Why lie about the location? Many /most vendors are not knowledgable on where specific fossils were discovered. Anything can be faked. There is enough here to believe this is not. 8 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seguidora-de-Isis Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 16 minutes ago, gigantoraptor said: Looks real... 7 minutes ago, Shellseeker said: ... If this is a fabrication, I will learn something new... This is extremely informative for me! Thank you my dear friends! 1 Is It real, or it's not real, that's the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seguidora-de-Isis Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 57 minutes ago, willy said: "the seller is Chinese" is a big red flag. Hard to tell if it is real by looking at a picture. It is a gamble in my opinion to buy this tooth thinking it is real. Where did you learn this? I do not think the nationality of a salesman could be indicative of red flags ... It would be the same as anyone here saying that they would never buy something from an American salesman because of the painted fishs from Green River: Or the fake "eggs" "of dinosaurs scattered across the United States for sale: As long as there are buyers willing to pay, then there will be fakes everywhere, no matter what the country. The TFF is an international forum, this means that we have members here from different nationalities and different cultures, so we have to be careful not to hurt the feeling of any of these nationalities. But anyway, I thank you for taking your time to try to help me. 8 1 Is It real, or it's not real, that's the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 If I had the money and the price was right, I'd buy this. I think it looks really good. 2 Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seguidora-de-Isis Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, Tidgy's Dad said: If I had the money and the price was right, I'd buy this. I think it looks really good. Fortunately the price is not right! It cost infinitely cheaper, just US $39,00 Dollars! Huge hug to you my dear friend from so far away @Tidgy's Dad! 2 Is It real, or it's not real, that's the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 Real lower jaw rhino tooth. Does indeed look like woolly rhino. 3 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seguidora-de-Isis Posted January 10, 2019 Author Share Posted January 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, LordTrilobite said: Real lower jaw rhino tooth. Does indeed look like woolly rhino. Thank you my friend @LordTrilobite. Your opinion of me is very important! I saw your work with your rhino and I really enjoyed it! 1 Is It real, or it's not real, that's the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilsAnonymous Posted January 10, 2019 Share Posted January 10, 2019 2 hours ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said: Where did you learn this? I do not think the nationality of a salesman could be indicative of red flags ... It would be the same as anyone here saying that they would never buy something from an American salesman because of the painted fishs from Green River: Or the fake "eggs" "of dinosaurs scattered across the United States for sale: As long as there are buyers willing to pay, then there will be fakes everywhere, no matter what the country. The TFF is an international forum, this means that we have members here from different nationalities and different cultures, so we have to be careful not to hurt the feeling of any of these nationalities. But anyway, I thank you for taking your time to try to help me. I agree. I have seen some very nice fossils from China as well yet it is a common assertion that Chinese material is fake. Anywhere, like S-D-I said, there are fakes. 4 On The Hunt For The Trophy Otodus! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crazyhen Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 I have checked my Chinese fossil reference books, and it looks like the tooth of woolly rhino. The species Coelodonta antiquitatis did occur in Heilongjiang (and Harbin) in late pleistocene. I think it is a genuine fossil, and by the way, mammal fossils are quite common in China and I am not aware there are fake mammal teeth fossil. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seguidora-de-Isis Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 34 minutes ago, Crazyhen said: I have checked my Chinese fossil reference books, and it looks like the tooth of woolly rhino. The species Coelodonta antiquitatis did occur in Heilongjiang (and Harbin) in late pleistocene. I think it is a genuine fossil, and by the way, mammal fossils are quite common in China and I am not aware there are fake mammal teeth fossil. As always extremely informative my dear friend Crazyhen! And your opinion was very much expected by me, since you live in China and you know very well the fossils of your country. Thank you! Note: By the size of this small tooth, I would not have liked to have personally encountered a Rhino like this during the Pleistocene. As well as I do not want to find an African Rhino these days. 3 Is It real, or it's not real, that's the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darko Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 I think it's from Coelodonta antiquitatis or the Woolly Rhino tooth 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abstraktum Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Beautiful looking tooth I'm am no expert in any way and not familiar with Rino tooth form China but I just find the color a little odd. Especially the first picture looks like someone just painted the tooth with black and brown and some light brown in between This somehow remainds me of the start of weathering the tracks of a tank model in 1/35. The color is on and now you have to add the details for the weathering. The color looks somehow so homogeneusly and sort of painted on. I don't how to describe it. But maybe it's just the flash from taking the pictures. Can anyone help with that? Is that kind of color normal? It just looks weird and unusual to me And if the colors are all real this would make the tooth even more awesome. But again, no expert here and I'm happy if anyone can enlighten me on the color 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 The colour looks completely standard to me if the tooth was found in the North Sea. I cannot speak for woolly rhino from China. Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seguidora-de-Isis Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Abstraktum said: ....But again, no expert here and I'm happy if anyone can enlighten me on the color Well ... I'm not an expert, but I can grant you this desire! The explanation is simpler than you can imagine! What happens is that the enamel of a tooth has a chemical composition completely different from the roots of the teeth and even the bones. And it is precisely this difference in chemical composition that causes the enamel of a tooth to react to a different shape during the mineralization process than the root and the bones. And this is precisely what causes a enamel of a tooth to have a different coloration from the root or bones. As an example to better illustrate, these fossils that are currently deposited in my private collection: Left upper jaw of a Mosasaurus: Note that the tooth enamel coloration is completely different from the root: Tooth of Megalodon: Note that the tooth enamel coloration is completely different from the root: So not always different colorations in the same fossil can be indicative of red flags. 3 Is It real, or it's not real, that's the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abstraktum Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 27 minutes ago, Seguidora-de-Isis said: So not always different colorations in the same fossil can be indicative of red flags. Very good explanation But I apparently wrote it wrong. That's not what I meant. My English is not that perfect, sorry The problem is not that crown and root have diffrent colors, but that the black color itself looks like painted on. Same with the brown parts. The color looks "all the same" to me. Your Meg and Mosasaur tooth look not like this, the color looks more "real", because there are slightly differences in one color within. Not wanted to say that this is a red flag, I just didn't came across a fossils that has a color scheme like that. Right now I'm lacking of better english words to describe it. Sorry that my post was not well written and sounded kind of silly that way. Even with google I don't find good words that really suit what I try to express But again, very nice explanation 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seguidora-de-Isis Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 36 minutes ago, Abstraktum said: ...But I apparently wrote it wrong. That's not what I meant. My English is not that perfect, sorry ... No problem, I do not speak English either. Is Google translator against Google translator! Hahahahah. You see, even so my explanation remains valid, because it is precisely the chemical reaction during the mineralization of different elements that will make all the difference in the end, and as I said, the chemical composition of the tooth enamel is different from the root. And all this added, creates color aberrations like this one from China: Or these two from North Sea: And to generate these extravagant colors, especially with the teeth of Chinese Rhinoceroses, I bet with you my friend @Abstraktumthat the different minerals that make up the sediments during the mineralization also influence in the color in the tooth enamel that has a different chemical composition from the root of tooth. Thus generating different chemical reactions and diferent colors. Bis bald mein lieber Freund! 1 Is It real, or it's not real, that's the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abstraktum Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Your picutes show really good what I meant Still impressed that the Matrix and circumstances in China produces this sort of smooth looking color. If I just saw this tooth at a fossil show I would be sure it is painted to hide something. Again, something new learned today Hasta pronto mi amigo! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aplomado Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 Let us know what it looks like when it arrives! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seguidora-de-Isis Posted January 11, 2019 Author Share Posted January 11, 2019 2 hours ago, aplomado said: Let us know what it looks like when it arrives! I promise when the tooth comes in I'll show. 1 Is It real, or it's not real, that's the question! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordTrilobite Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 13 hours ago, Abstraktum said: The problem is not that crown and root have diffrent colors, but that the black color itself looks like painted on. Same with the brown parts. The color looks "all the same" to me. Your Meg and Mosasaur tooth look not like this, the color looks more "real", because there are slightly differences in one color within. Not wanted to say that this is a red flag, I just didn't came across a fossils that has a color scheme like that. Nah, it's just a really nice tooth imo, which is why the colour is so consistent. This is a normal colour. 1 Olof Moleman AKA Lord Trilobite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caldigger Posted January 11, 2019 Share Posted January 11, 2019 2 hours ago, LordTrilobite said: Nah, it's just a really nice tooth imo, which is why the colour is so consistent. This is a normal colour. Yes, this coloring is quite normal for these teeth having several in my collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Rico Posted January 12, 2019 Share Posted January 12, 2019 38 minutes ago, caldigger said: Yes, this coloring is quite normal for these teeth having several in my collection. They are really stunning in it’s preservation . I can see why the confusion about the look of it. I have one but it is from the Brown Bsnk of the North Sea. It is not in anyway this perfect but they don’t come out of the sea this good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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