A french theropod tooth

[Sauroniops]

A guy is selling this tooth, accordingly a theropod from France, found in Cherves-Richemont quarry, Cherves-de-Cognac.

 

It measures 1,5 cm in length.

 

The seller says it is "allosaurid". I've been looking a bit around for some similiar teeth from the area, as well as species, and I find it a bit hard to find some good articles or pictures to cover this, but from what I can make out of it at this point, it may either be Nuthetes, or perhaps a french Neovenator? I had read recently, that they had found teeth in France, resembling the holotype of Neovenator, so that would make sense with the "allosaurid". There's a lot of disagreement about Nuthetes in general as well, from what I've heard. So what would you guys classify this tooth as? To me the shape does not look much like any dromaeosaurid.

 

 

[gigantoraptor]

There aren't many french theropods described (and none from this location I think) so it's not easy to give this a species name. Could you get a density count of the denticles on both carinae?

[Coco]

Here is a link to a french paleontologist who worked on this site : https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Michel_Mazin

 

Perhaps you could contact him ?

 

Coco

[Anomotodon]

This is my listing  Sorry, meant to write 'Allosauroid' instead of 'Allosaurid' since this is more accurate. It is definitely not a Dromaeosaurid since mesial serrations extend all the way on the carina and are of similar size on bost distal and mesial sides plus Nuthetes as a species is not known from France. Will try to make serration count later, what I can say at the moment is that they are fine which could fit the crazy variation in Allosauroid teeth.

[SailingAlongToo]

2 minutes ago, Anomotodon said:

This is my listing  Sorry, meant to write 'Allosauroid' instead of 'Allosaurid' since this is more accurate. It is definitely not a Dromaeosaurid since mesial serrations extend all the way on the carina and are of similar size on bost distal and mesial sides plus Nuthetes as a species is not known from France. Will try to make serration count later, what I can they at the moment is that they are fine which could fit the crazy variation in Allosauroid teeth.

 

+1 and  for providing full disclosure and additional details to the TFF members about this item.

[Sauroniops]

@Anomotodon aha, cool! Yes, I did not think it was dromaeosaurid either, but just thought I'd make a post in here, in case anyone would know the genus and such. It's been very helpful using this site every time I'm looking to buy a more "rare" fossil. And yea, allosauroid is very fitting not only for the serrations, but also the shape. Hence why I am a bit curious on whether this could be the recently discussed French Neovenator.  

[Fossildude19]

Glad for the information.  

Please remember to adhere to the sales talk rules.  

Thanks folks.  

[Darktooth]

8 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

Glad for the information.  

Please remember to adhere to the sales talk rules.  

Thanks folks.  

Nothing gets past Ole' Eagle Eyes!

[Troodon]

Not sure you are going to get further than calling this an Allosauriod.   I've yet to find anything published regarding theropods.   Possibly the paleontologist Coco mentioned might provide some incite.   The few teeth in my collection are identified as Allosauriod indet.    If someone has something meaningful published love to see it   

 

This was published in 2006 of what was known

 

vii)five families of dinosaurs: Dromaeosauridae
Matthew and Brown 1922; Theropoda Marsh
1881 (Fam. indet.); Iguanodontia Dollo 1882
(Fam. indet.); Heterodontosauridae Romer 1966;
Stegosauridae Marsh 1880

 

 

Site study around 2006  by Jean-Michel Mazin and John Paul Billon-Bruyat

Dromeosauridae ( Nuthetes destructor ) 
- Theropoda (at least 5 species) 

have these photos but nothing else

[Sauroniops]

@Troodon this is helpful, thank you. Think I will try to contact Jean-Michel then perhaps.

 

I can't remember where I had heard it, but some article had stated, that several french theropod teeth had matched the Neovenator Salerii holotype. Do you by any chance know of an article describing this further? Cause when I searched around today, all I could find were references to a specific article, but no link or URL, meaning I couldn't find the source of the claim. Even the wikipedia page for Neovenator has a reference to this article, but no link to follow, only the list of authors.

[Sauroniops]

@Troodon Nevermind what I said about that missing article. Just found it:

 

http://www.agso.net/sites/agso.net/IMG/pdf/angeac.pdf

 

It is referred to at page 10, line 11-26

 

And shown at Figure 9, E and F

 

 

 

[Troodon]

11 minutes ago, Sauroniops said:

@Troodon Nevermind what I said about that missing article. Just found it:

 

http://www.agso.net/sites/agso.net/IMG/pdf/angeac.pdf

 

It is referred to at page 10, line 11-26

 

And shown at Figure 9, E and F

 

 

Yes I have that paper and have commented on it before and the detail is in the paragraph but it does not say they are Neovenator just that they are indistinguishable

[Sauroniops]

@Troodon Ah, yes!

 

Guess we'll have to wait and see if they find something, that can determine if the dinosaur the tooth derived from, is either Neovenator or a closely related species then 

[Troodon]

When it comes to isolated European theropod teeth its just going to be a struggle identifying them with any degree of certainty.   If Paleontologists have difficulty wrapping their hands around them how do you expect us to identify them.  Most collectors should be happy acquiring nice specimens in hopes that someday an ID will be found, that's what I do.   Hey its no different than the Kem Kem just fewer teeth in Europe

 

If you find out anything with you contact please pass it on.

[Anomotodon]

So here is my second tooth from this location. I think it could be a basal spinosaurid due to very fine serrations, thin and pointed shape and enamel fluting similar to Baryonyx or Suchomimus but weaker. Can't find any other matches yet, @Troodon what do you think?

 

 

It's hard to take a good pic of fluting, I think here it is somewhat visible

 

[Sauroniops]

@Troodon  Yea, it pretty much is like the Kem Kem by now innit? Hehe

[Troodon]

14 minutes ago, Anomotodon said:

So here is my second tooth from this location. I think it could be a basal spinosaurid due to very fine serrations, thin and pointed shape and enamel fluting similar to Baryonyx or Suchomimus but weaker. Can't find any other matches yet, @Troodon what do you think?

 

 

It's hard to take a good pic of fluting, I think here it is somewhat visible

 

 

Interesting what does the cross-section of the base look like.  Not sure I'm there shape of the crown not oval enough.

[Pyroraptor]

hello It's not Spino...it's probably ...thalattosuchus ...

[Sauroniops]

1 hour ago, Pyroraptor said:

hello It's not Spino...it's probably ...thalattosuchus ...

 

Except thalattosuchus teeth are usually nowhere near as laterally compressed as the theropod tooth above, which they speculate could be basal spinosaurid. And they often have loads of ridges, similar to the ridges seen on some pliosaur and ichthyosaur teeth.