barefootgirl Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 ]Barry found this today down at the Sulphur. We would like to know if this is bison or just a bovine horn. In formal logic, a contradiction is the signal of defeat: but in the evolution of real knowledge, it marks the first step in progress toward victory. Alfred North Whithead 'Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramo Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 I would guess with about 80% confidence that it's bison. Nice find. Tracer is the bison/cow expert. Hopefully he will look. For one species to mourn the death of another is a new thing under the sun. -Aldo Leopold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seldom Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 Either way that's cool Good to see your river is giving up some good finds. Galveston Island 32 miles long 2 miles wide 134 bars 23 liquor stores any questions? Evolution is Chimp Change. Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass; it's about learning to dance in the rain! "I like to listen. I have learned a great deal from listening carefully. Most people never listen." Ernest Hemingway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 ]Barry found this today down at the Sulphur. We would like to know if this is bison or just a bovine horn. The horn core is an appropriate size (length on the upper curve, tip to burr) for Bison occidentalis or Bison antiquus. What it doesn't have is a pronounced curve or "hook" which is characteristic of these species. The almost-straight nature of Barry's core suggests to me that it is from a cow. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 ok, here's the deal. the most knowledgeable people i've read about stuff like this frequently won't say what a bone is from. they'll just say something like - in a sample of 25 cows and 25 bison, this particular little bump on the left ventricular renoberant exists in 20 of the cows, and 4 of the bison. they do that kind of thing because bison and cows are pretty darm sinilar, and the variations within each speachie can trend to overlap a tad, maybe, i think. so having not said any of that, i'll link you to a scholarlisticalative portable document file in which, on document page 35 or pdf page 43, you can observicate some dimensionalities upon you which can base your own suppositorysition. but me, here's what i'd do. if it is the slightest bit heavy, then it's a bison horn core, and i'd probably put it in some strong tea to brown it up a bit and then vinac the heck out of it and enter it in the fotm contest, then donate it to a elementary school and take a large tax writeoff. you're welcome. important link. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grampa dino Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 I to say you have it right Bison ,my favorite meat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 which one is this from? (hint: it's been vinac'd) i really like this horn. unfortunately, like everything cool in my world - it's tj's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 I to say you have it right Bison ,my favorite meat i don't eat anything pleistocene. bad for my digestion. plus a 10K-year-old belch is worse on the receiving end than meatloaf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NAUfrogger Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 Would you like to meet up on Nov. 20 at the NSR? You can be hit by a boat and die You can be attacked by a shark and die OR you could fall off the couch and die GET OFF THE COUCH - go scuba! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreekCrawler Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Thanks for the replies everyone.I'm pretty worn out from two days of slaving up and down the Sulphur.The suspected piece is very heavy for it's size and is not waterlogged.I'll snap some better pics tomorrow of the curvature of the horn core. I also found a decent sized piece of Mastodon enamel...A first for me!Also found some very nice Mosasaur verts that didn't tumble very far in the gravel.Barefootgirl found four associated Mosasaur root sockets with teeth and various pieces of the jawbone.Very nice stuff and I'm sure pics will be coming soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreekCrawler Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Ok,here are some more pics of the suspected Bison just for the sake of argument! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 that's kind of gross, showing me the inside chamber area of a poor bovid's skull. and i just ate. and if you didn't bite your fingernails to the quick, i'd tell you to push on one of the exposed areas of cancellous bone with your fingernail to see how soft it is, but since we can't do that definitive, guaranteed fossil test, then go with plan b. tea, vinac ==> onward! p.s. - i'm just dying inside everytime ya'll say you went and scarfed fossiley goodnesses at the nsr, particularly mosey fossiley goodnesses. not so very long ago, when i was but a newbie fossil hunter and had never wallowed in the upper cretaceous, that place represented to me the sum of all things desired on the planet. upon waking each morning i would softly chant ten times "ladonia" (i won't say the other nine - you get the point). and finally the big day came, and tj and i actually braved the big, scary world and went up there, all by ourselves! and of course we almost got killed in a head-on collision, but i really think that was the second trip, and anyway, we found the coolest fossils on the planet!!!! little broken gnarley baculites segments squished into the imprints of big heavy, clod-hopper looking footprints. probably your footprints! <getting all squinty-eyed> that was when i came straight home, after paying the $378 motel bill for the room with the low-battery alarm in the middle of the night from the darned smoke alarm, and began my intensive letter-writing campaign to have north texas annexed into oklahoma. the legislation never seemed to get out of committee, but i'm taking a lot of guys in austin to lunch next session, so we'll see. hey, that reminds me. when's construction start on lake ralph hall? jealousy - it can get very ugly, can't it? <wandering off to tj's room to gaze at some of the other cool fossils i don't have> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 When was the last time there were Bison wandering around that neck of the woods? I ask because that doesn't look all that old to me... "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 When was the last time there were Bison wandering around that neck of the woods? I ask because that doesn't look all that old to me... it will, give it time. and the woods in that area really don't constitute what you'd call a "neck". more like a thorax-shape... but in defense of my client, we aver and avow that everything not involving electronics happened in the pleistocene, and we have the satellite photos to prove it. pwned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreekCrawler Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Here is something I dug up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreekCrawler Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 [. hey, that reminds me. when's construction start on lake ralph hall? Found this interesting article.Looks like I'll be pretty old by the time this lake is built.Local paleontologist says Lake Ralph Hall site 'significant' By: Molly McCullough, Flower Mound Leader 03/31/2005 Highland Village resident Roger Farish, who is also a member of the Dallas Paleontological Society, said he is disappointed the Upper Trinity Regional Water District chose the North Sulphur River as the site for the proposed Lake Ralph Hall. Farish said that particular site is perhaps the best site in North Texas for finding fossils of all kinds. In fact, the Dallas Paleontological Society gathered 120 documents and experts together to write an entire book about the North Sulphur River area around the city of Ladonia. Previously, the DPS had never fully dedicated any publication to one area. "It is right enough and special enough to get this kind of scientific notoriety," Farish said. However, Farish said he "realizes how critical water is to every living organism" as well as the need to plan for future water supplies. Therefore, if the lake is approved, Farish and thousands of other fossil lovers will spend countless hours trying to excavate as many artifacts as possible before the reservoir covers the area. Farish said he recently met with Upper Trinity's Executive Director Tom Taylor to talk about the lake site's fossils. Farish said it was a positive meeting. "He's been trying to make everybody happy," Farish said. Farish said the North Sulphur River is a treasure chest for fossil collectors for several reasons. First of all, Farish said the original North Sulphur River was once a winding stream that traveled downhill around six inches per mile. However, in 1929, area farmers wanted the river to better serve their irrigation needs and therefore channeled the river into a straight, fast-paced waterway. After the change, the water traveled downward around five to six feet per mile. This increase in speed caused the sides of the channel to erode away over the years, leaving a ravine more than 50 feet deep and several football fields across. These extreme measurements allow fossil hunters to climb down into the channel and find bones, teeth, and other ancient remnants sticking out of the dirt. Farish said the area is especially interesting because not only can people find dinosaur bones dating back 70 million years ago, but can also find ancient animals from 12,000 years ago. Some of the older fossils are from dinosaurs like the mosasaur, an ancient aquatic lizard that spanned 40 feet in length, had razor sharp teeth, and ate pretty much anything it wanted when it was alive. Several complete skeletons of mosasaurs have been found in the North Sulphur River Basin, according to Farish. Farish said other dinosaur fossils that can be found in the area include giant oysters, ammonites, several species of fish, and sharks. " The whole marine environment is here," he said. Younger fossils were left in the area after the last ice age, 12,000 years ago. Farish said the North Sulphur River Basin has yielded an armadillo skeleton the size of a Volkswagon. Other animals that have been found there include a giant beaver, camels, giant ground sloths, and a giant bison with straight horns - two times the size of existing bison. Farish said the DPS is not the only group aware of the channel's fossils. Farish said many local residents of Fannin County flock to the river bed, especially after a recent storm. "The competition is fierce, people are out there daily," Farish said. "The clouds have barely cleared after a storm and there are footprints already ahead of you down there." Farish said he has led fossil-finding field trips in the North Sulphur River Basin for more than 10 years. Farish plans to participate in the DPS-hosted trip today. He said he would be willing to guide a future trip to the proposed lake site for any interested group. No experience needed, Farish said. In order to collect fossils, Farish said one should bring a bucket, pick up anything that does not look like a rock and ask a fellow-fossil finder what any item might be. Farish has his own collection of fossils from the area, ranging from shark teeth, to mosasaur vertebrae. "You just walk around and pick it up," he said. Farish said if Lake Ralph Hall is constructed over the next 25 YEARS, it will completely cover or wash away any remaining fossils. Farish said he has hopes the DPS will be able to advise Upper Trinity engineers about future dam placement, allowing some fossils to be collected. Farish said he wished the proposed Marvin Nichols reservoir, currently proposed further down the Sulphur River would have been built. He said if that bigger reservoir had been built first, it would perhaps eliminate the need for Lake Ralph Hall. But no matter what happens, Farish plans to keep traveling to the area to collect all that he can. Ideally, he said he would like to see the channel erode even further. " I'd like to see the whole area wash out," Farish said. The DPS hardback book on the North Sulphur River Basin is titled "Fossil Collector's Guidebook to the North Sulphur River" and is available for $15 from the DPS. Farish said residents are welcome to e-mail him at rffarish@comcast.net. For information on the Dallas Paleontological Society, go to www.dallaspaleo.org or call 817-355-4693. 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JohnJ Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Barry, it looks like it's within the parameters and form of Bison bison. I have several similar skull fragments that may only be a few hundred years old, but I like them. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefootgirl Posted October 27, 2009 Author Share Posted October 27, 2009 Barry was obsessed with that thing all weekend. Im glad it looks to be bison and I think it was the find of the weekend. In formal logic, a contradiction is the signal of defeat: but in the evolution of real knowledge, it marks the first step in progress toward victory. Alfred North Whithead 'Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 ohmigollygosh! it's the OTHER half of the same skull!! nice tea/vinac job, john!! <walking away, shaking head> man, what were the odds?!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 ohmigollygosh! it's the OTHER half of the same skull!! nice tea/vinac job, john!! <walking away, shaking head> man, what were the odds?!!! Not this time, his was dry and this one's wet and comes with a dart point pic partner. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CreekCrawler Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 Not this time, his was dry and this one's wet and comes with a dart point pic partner. I must be slipping! Didn't notice that point until you...well you know! Nice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 (edited) ...just being mischievous. Edited October 27, 2009 by JohnJ The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted October 27, 2009 Share Posted October 27, 2009 ...just being mischievous. yes, but the reason i never take photos of that much gravel is because i always notice something later in it that i didn't pick up and should have. but anyway, at least you saw the dart point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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