Monica Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 Hello there! This past Saturday, I went on a "field trip" to Hungry Hollow near Arkona, Ontario (mid-Devonian in age), and I found one weird item. It's an echinoderm of some sort, but which sort? A crinoid holdfast? Something else? Please see the photos below and let me know what you think. (By the way - I didn't make it home from work in time to take photos in natural light today, so I apologize for the fairly poor photo quality - if it's sunny tomorrow I can get better pictures then. And I also apologize for my blue finger in the photos - my students and I were looking at cheek cells under the compound light microscope today and some methylene blue got on my fingers - oops!) One end showing the pentaradial symmetry: The other end not showing much: Side photos: Thanks for your help! Monica 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 Looks like a rhombiferid to me. Is that possible at Hungry Hollow? Nice find, Monica. 4 Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 Nice find if that's what it is! (Not that I'm very familiar with what's rare or common at HH, but have not heard of those from that site before). I remember the cheek cell thing in Grade 7 but I don't remember using methylene blue! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica Posted October 29, 2019 Author Share Posted October 29, 2019 6 hours ago, Tidgy's Dad said: Looks like a rhombiferid to me. Is that possible at Hungry Hollow? Nice find, Monica. Gosh, Adam - that would be wonderful if that's what it is!!! I was hoping to find a blastoid last Saturday (as @Northern Sharks can attest to!), but I was unsuccessful (although a nice man named Rick gifted me one that he had found). The specimen above was a weird shape so I picked it up - I thought that maybe it was a weirdly-shaped coral. When I showed it to Rick, he said that it was an echinoderm of some sort, and thought that maybe it was a crinoid holdfast, but he was perplexed about the lack of extensions that crinoid holdfasts usually possess. So here I am, asking for some identification help. Now, is Class Rhombifera present at Hungry Hollow? I have no idea at all. Perhaps @middevonian or @crinus has some insight into the matter... Thanks for chiming in, Adam!!! How are you these days? And how are wifey and Tidgy? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica Posted October 29, 2019 Author Share Posted October 29, 2019 1 hour ago, Wrangellian said: Nice find if that's what it is! (Not that I'm very familiar with what's rare or common at HH, but have not heard of those from that site before). I remember the cheek cell thing in Grade 7 but I don't remember using methylene blue! Thanks, Eric! I have no idea if Class Rhombifera is present at HH - I've tagged a couple of people who might know - we'll see what they say... Re: the cheek cell lab - I did it with my grade 10s yesterday, mainly to get them used to using the microscope. We looked at onion cells (which we stained with Lugol's solution) on Friday and then the cheek cells (stained with methylene blue) yesterday - the classics. As for the lab you did in grade 7 - I'm sure you used a stain of some sort, otherwise the cells wouldn't have been visible at all - perhaps you don't remember? I certainly don't remember the labs that I did in grade 7!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwigia Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 Interesting find, Monica. I can't help you further with id, but hopefully the others will pipe up soon. 1 Greetings from the Lake of Constance. Roger http://www.steinkern.de/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 5 hours ago, Monica said: Thanks for chiming in, Adam!!! How are you these days? And how are wifey and Tidgy? We're all well here, thanks. wifey's enjoying the mess that is Brexit, Tidgy's taken up backgammon and I have been busy inventing a new colour. Life's Good. How are you, hubby, Viola and William? 1 Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 Interesting find. Don't the unknowns drive you crazy??? Will watch closely for a possible ID. Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 I've never heard of a rhombiferan coming out of the Hungery Hollow, and don't recall any being listed in Wright and Stumm's faunal list. The specimen shown no pore rhombs or other features that I would attribute to a rhombiferan aside from the general non-symmetrical shape. My money would be on a bulbous crinoid root. Don 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamalama Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 14 hours ago, Monica said: Side photos: This picture, specifically, makes me think it's a Crinoid calyx of some kind. The half moon shapes make me think of arm attachment points. What does it look like when wet? Can you see any more detail? 2 -Dave __________________________________________________ Geologists on the whole are inconsistent drivers. When a roadcut presents itself, they tend to lurch and weave. To them, the roadcut is a portal, a fragment of a regional story, a proscenium arch that leads their imaginations into the earth and through the surrounding terrain. - John McPheeIf I'm going to drive safely, I can't do geology. - John McPheeCheck out my Blog for more fossils I've found: http://viewsofthemahantango.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest11596 Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 On 10/29/2019 at 5:41 AM, Monica said: I have no idea at all. Perhaps @middevonian or @crinus has some insight into the matter... Hi Monica, I've attached photos of a specimen from my collection for comparison. I have it labeled as "crinoid holdfast?" (best guess based on external morphology) occurring from the coral biostrome of the Hungry Hollow member. Crinoid holdfasts from the area are not well studied. Articulated calyxes, none the less crowns with columnals still attached, are a rarity in the Hungry Hollow member. This makes associations difficult. It's possible that your specimen was heavily reworked (why it lacks finer detail); common as the coral biostrome is believed to have been a high energy zone. Kudos for collecting it! Best, Darrell 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandpa Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 12 hours ago, Tidgy's Dad said: I have been busy inventing a new colour. How do you do that? Mix visible light wave lengths with quantum colors? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 14 hours ago, Monica said: Thanks, Eric! I have no idea if Class Rhombifera is present at HH - I've tagged a couple of people who might know - we'll see what they say... Re: the cheek cell lab - I did it with my grade 10s yesterday, mainly to get them used to using the microscope. We looked at onion cells (which we stained with Lugol's solution) on Friday and then the cheek cells (stained with methylene blue) yesterday - the classics. As for the lab you did in grade 7 - I'm sure you used a stain of some sort, otherwise the cells wouldn't have been visible at all - perhaps you don't remember? I certainly don't remember the labs that I did in grade 7!!! I do recall that the cells were hard to see... the classmate who looked before me was trying to direct me to where they could be seen, and finally I spotted them. Pretty sure there was no dye, everything in the field of view was colorless. I have (mostly) fond memories of Grade 7 - our teacher was pretty good and encouraged interest in these sorts of things. I was getting into fossils around that time and I remember him bringing in his small collection for me to see, including a mammoth tooth and a big ammonite from Dorset. He described me as a 'fossil freak' (assuring me that was not a pejorative term) and said his brother was one as well! Well if that thing is a crinoid holdfast, that's still a new addition to your collection, right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 49 minutes ago, grandpa said: How do you do that? Mix visible light wave lengths with quantum colors? Not quite so technical. Just throw lots of paint around the living room and see what happens. 2 Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandpa Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 Yea, sure - - that could work too (?). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica Posted October 30, 2019 Author Share Posted October 30, 2019 15 hours ago, Ludwigia said: Interesting find, Monica. I can't help you further with id, but hopefully the others will pipe up soon. Thanks, Roger! I hope that all is well in Germany! 14 hours ago, Tidgy's Dad said: We're all well here, thanks. wifey's enjoying the mess that is Brexit, Tidgy's taken up backgammon and I have been busy inventing a new colour. Life's Good. How are you, hubby, Viola and William? I'm glad to hear that all is well with you and your family, Adam! Everything over here is good - we're gearing up for Halloween (well, the kids are, at least - I have bought the chocolate and candy, though - that counts, right? ) 14 hours ago, minnbuckeye said: Interesting find. Don't the unknowns drive you crazy??? Will watch closely for a possible ID. Mike The unknowns can be frustrating, but the possibility of having something new is so exciting!!! 12 hours ago, FossilDAWG said: I've never heard of a rhombiferan coming out of the Hungery Hollow, and don't recall any being listed in Wright and Stumm's faunal list. The specimen shown no pore rhombs or other features that I would attribute to a rhombiferan aside from the general non-symmetrical shape. My money would be on a bulbous crinoid root. Don Thanks, Don! Perhaps if I get it prepped it might be more recognizable as whatever it is (which is likely a crinoid component, based on the comments of other HH hunters) - I may have to call on a friend for that... 10 hours ago, Shamalama said: This picture, specifically, makes me think it's a Crinoid calyx of some kind. The half moon shapes make me think of arm attachment points. What does it look like when wet? Can you see any more detail? I'll try to get a picture of it wet, but I don't think it'll reveal any further details. Perhaps prepping it is the way to go... 4 hours ago, middevonian said: Hi Monica, I've attached photos of a specimen from my collection for comparison. I have it labeled as "crinoid holdfast?" (best guess based on external morphology) occurring from the coral biostrome of the Hungry Hollow member. Crinoid holdfasts from the area are not well studied. Finding articulated calyxes none the less crowns with columnals still attached is rare. This makes associations difficult. It's possible that your specimen was heavily reworked; common as the coral biostrome is believed to be a high energy zone. Kudos for collecting it! Best, Darrell Thanks for chiming in, Darrell! I picked it up because it looked different from the other stuff that I usually see at HH - I'll see if I can get it prepped a bit... 1 hour ago, Wrangellian said: Well if that thing is a crinoid holdfast, that's still a new addition to your collection, right? Well, it is sort of new. I found a tabulate coral last year that has some holdfasts attached to it, but this would be my first loose/free holdfast, so that counts as new 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 Your first bulbous one? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinus Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 Hi Monica, I am going to agree with Darrell that it is a holdfast. That first picture of it showing what looks like the inside of a crinoid column does it for me. The rest of it look like just a mass of calcite which is probably what a holdfast would be. I don't see much there that can be prepped. It looks pretty clean to me. Joe 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Kmiecik Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 22 hours ago, grandpa said: How do you do that? Mix visible light wave lengths with quantum colors? Naw, man. Visible light is sooo 2009. We're talking super longwave in shades of reddish blacks. 2 Mark. Fossil hunting is easy -- they don't run away when you shoot at them! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimravis Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 Great find for you Monica- congrats. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monica Posted October 31, 2019 Author Share Posted October 31, 2019 On 10/30/2019 at 2:10 AM, Wrangellian said: Your first bulbous one? Yes, it is my first bulbous crinoid holdfast, so that does make it new for me! 16 hours ago, crinus said: Hi Monica, I am going to agree with Darrell that it is a holdfast. That first picture of it showing what looks like the inside of a crinoid column does it for me. The rest of it look like just a mass of calcite which is probably what a holdfast would be. I don't see much there that can be prepped. It looks pretty clean to me. Joe Thanks, Joe! Well, then, I won't bother with getting it prepped - I'll just leave it as-is. Thanks for answering the call! 11 hours ago, Nimravis said: Great find for you Monica- congrats. Thanks, Ralph! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now