Paleontologist Question

[PaleoPastels]

Anyone out there, do I absolutely have to go to college to be considered a paleontologist? Im down to the fact college is not an option in life anytime soon and iv thought about it long and hard in my bed everynight before I rest. I personaly learn all the material I know from borowed or bought college paleontology books rather than taking 6 years of college classes and I think its dumb I would have to take classes that thave nothing to do with paleontology. My bestie tells me that I shouldnt have to have a piece of paper telling me who I am based off 6 years of bookwork when amatuers can understand college level palelontology vocab and its an easy subject to pick up rather than being a doctor( something you need college experience for). He says I am already a paleontologist because of what all I learn from being outside connecting with ancient ecosystems so much and reading about them 24/7. He also thinks that the way I respect fossils makes me a true paleontologist. I know self-taught paleontologists out there who are respected and didnt even take any paleontology college courses. I enjoy working at at a science center where I teach people everyday about our ancient ecosystems, identify specimen and ages, learning about fossils that are new to me, and Im learning about fossil prep too. I may be still very young and learning new material all the time but please see its not just some "hobby" to me its basically who i am and im nothing special without it because thats my talent I was given.

[jpc]

HI Larsa-

I think it depends opn who you're talking to. If you are talking to someone who does have the PhD at the end of their name, they might get bent if you call yourself a paleontologist. I am a professional preparator, but most folks around here know me as a plaeontologist, and I often call myself one. Technically I am a paleontological technician, and you sound like a paleontological educator, but for the most part, you are a paleontologist. And when they (John Q Public) accuse you of being an archeologist... that's when you really are a paleontologist. Paleontological technician and plaeontological educator are just too much to say all the time.

Sorry to hear your plans for school have not panned out, but keep this in mind, you do learn a lot more in college than just what you study... don't write it completely off yet.

[2ynpigo]

A college degree brings opportunity and better wages. Yes, you would have to take classes that you may not like, and many that have nothing to do with paleo. But life is full of doing things that you don't like. You might as well get used to it.

Paleo, like geology, is a science that can't be taught from just books. You need to see things in the field with the experts there to help you to really learn the science.

Go to college. Borrow the money. Work part time. It will be hard work. School has to be your first priority. But in the end, you'll be glad you got your degree.

[Fossilcollector]

What is your end goal?

If you want to work with fossils, collect fossils, help educate people, and sell fossils; then you don't need all those degrees.

If you want to publish papers and get professionally known; then you might need the degrees. I'm not a paleontologist but I've got a bachelors degree in geosciences; I'm currently working with paleontologists on various papers and such. Having a degree, even a bachelor's, helps open up a lot of doors within the scientific community.

If you want to teach classes at a university, become a professor, or have the official title of paleontologist, then you do need your PHD.

-YvW

[John]

The reality is that without a doctorate your chances of getting a good university job in paleo are pretty slim and without at least a bachelor's degree it's just not going to happen. Certainly any field has contributing members who are self-taught (there are several amateur entomologists who are the top experts in their particular niche) and a degree isn't required to publish, but paleontology is as cliquish as any other specialty and you will have to work VERY, VERY hard to gain the respect of the people in it if you want to depend on a self-taught background. For the most part, the attitude seems to be "I had to jump through the hoops, why should you get a pass on them?"

To play Devil's Advocate for a minute, I do think there is an inherent value in a university education beyond just the "vocational training" for a particular field. Part of it is simply learning how to conduct good research and to gain a broad perspective on knowledge beyond just what you want to know at a particular moment. In other words, it has been my experience that many of the classes you don't think have any value pay dividends in unexpected ways well beyond your time in school. Sometimes it's as simple as having a sufficient background to be able to see through BS of many kinds because you've at least been exposed to a wide variety of subjects and have learned how to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

Even among professional paleontologists I have noticed that you can easily spot the ones who have a deep, but narrow education. A good example can be found in pachycephalosaur taxonomy. A recent paper showed that the myriad taxa based on domes and horns turn out to be variation during growth and not distinct species at all. Still, even after this paper showed that developmental biology must be considered when looking at pachycephalosaurs, there are still people who create a new species for every odd hunk of skull which is just plain sloppy scholarship. Beyond that, it's one thing to make arguments about growth and development in dinosaurs, it's another thing to prove it and you can't do that without a firm background in statistical analysis and the math behind it.

I know what you're thinking here...ok, so math and wet biology may be useful to paleo, but why take literature or art?

Again I would say that you never know what value something has until you need it.

There is an old adage that says: If all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

But the world is held together by more than just nails.

[tracer]

i've always considered you a paleontologist.

most sweeping generalizations are false. "college is good and everyone should go" is false. for many, if not most people, the decision to go to college is based on a concept that they will either get employment as a result of having a degree, or better yet, make lots more money than they otherwise would have as a result of having a degree. neither concept is necessarily true, although they can be, sometimes.

but the concept of going into debt of a hundred grand or so over four years rather than getting out and making a hundred grand or so in that time should be examined carefully.

some people try to make their living off of the things they like to do. others try to make as good a living however they can and have enough free time to also do the things they want to do, just for fun. as far as paleontology goes, i fall very much into that latter group. i've never made a dime off of it, and in fact have spent quite a bit chasing that fun, but it's been pure fun. i study it when i want. i study whatever aspect of it i choose. i go fossil hunting when i feel like it. i keep whatever i find if i want to and leave it lay if i don't.

self-actualization is a grand thing, but the reality is that the vast majority of people do not get to make a bunch of money having fun. but many end up having some free time to play hard in between episodes of working hard.

as far as self-titling, this is how i think of me ==> defcon 3

[PaleoPastels]

Thanks everyone

I dont want to publish anything or try to become famous, I just want to know the material just beacuse and use it everyday to look for fossils. I want to go out and look for fossils with other paleontologists for local museum displays and being part of a paleo team whether im self taught or college trained. I feel like some things cant be taught in college and hands on experience is highly important when learning. I would love to join the DPS and find fossils together with the other members and having a job somewhere on the side, maybe at a science museum! I already work at one and everyday I feel like a paleontologist beacause I enjoy teaching people about their fossils they bring in for me to ID. I have been told I do an amazing job because of how much I already know and how happy I make all the visitors when I educate them. I guess I would like to also do prep work. I got to help set up an air abrasive station yesterday and I am gonna learn how to use one eventually.

[LanceH]

MY personal opinion is that to honestly call yourself a "Paleontologist" in the same league as other professionals like "physicist" or "surgeon" you need to complete college and get that PHD or whatever. You should be formally educated in at least geology, paleontology, biology, anatomy, mathematics, etc. Also you should probably be employed based on your skills and education at an institute of learning like a university or museum. I also think you need to be involved with some type of scientific literature either at least as co-writer.

There's a guy out there named Jacene who quit college after 2 years and makes his living off casting bones and fossil field trips but yet freely uses the label "Paleontologist" in the media.

Even if I did what I do for 30 years and literally knew more than the local paleo guys I wouldn't call myself a "Paleontologist".

Having said all that, these days with the availability of information digitally, I think anyone can become extremely knowlegable about paleontology staying at home.

Edited December 27, 2010 by LanceHall

[Xiphactinus]

I think there's a distinct difference between a paleontologist and a "serious amateur paleontologist" such as myself. I worked along side grad students working on their masters and doctorates in paleontology while I was an undergrad. (I had a work-study job in the Nat History Museum at KU, and with my interest in paleo, I often found myself in the back room.) Those guys and gals had a much deeper understanding of the science of paleontology -- beyond just the fossils.

And to echo what others have said...the college experience can't be matched. You learn a lot more than what's between the covers of a book or your lecture notes. You learn how to think, how to express yourself in writing and in speaking, and how to plan and work towards goals. Valuable no matter what you end up doing later in life.

[tracer]

those who pursue titles frequently value the titles enough to attempt to define them to exclude as many others as possible, or even rework them to sound more impressive. employers are fond at times of giving spiffy titles in lieu of higher compensation, which is amusing. but to my mind there are no analogies between titles which by definition require licensing and represent legally-defined occupations, and those which do not. a definition search for the term "paleontologist" will return, among others, a definition that it's one who studies paleontology.

studies it.

it seems that a fairly broad group of people can claim the title, until such time as the paleontological police punish the pseudo-paleontologists publicly.

[Boneman007]

As far as college, if you plan on a career in food services or janitorial engineering, don't go. If you would like to make a living, do go to college. You can dream that you will be successful and rich without college, or you can be successful and possibly rich with it.

In 6 years you can have a masters degree, or simply be 6 years older. Its up to you.

Good Luck!

Edited December 27, 2010 by Boneman007

[John]

it seems that a fairly broad group of people can claim the title, until such time as the paleontological police punish the pseudo-paleontologists publicly.

I think the title means a lot less than what you do with it. Creationists are fond of title-abuse yet contribute virtually nothing to paleontology, while I know a number of people who count as "amateurs" only because they aren't paid to do what they do.

The bottom line boils down to how you wish to be employed. If you want to be part of the academic side of paleontology a degree is almost universally required. If you want to be a technician or preparator then a degree is useful, but lack of one is not a roadblock. If you want to work as a volunteer, docent etc. then all that matters is your enthusiasm.

[Auspex]

Maybe you can get your foot in the door by volunteering some at a museum: test the waters, see where you might like to go with it, then plan your education around what helps get you there.

[BobWill]

Larsa, by all means join the DPS. They welcome what they like to call "serious amateurs" in fact I think there are more of us than there are professionals in that group. The field trips are great and the presentations at meetings often have some elements that I can actually understand!

[grampa dino]

As someone all ready asked, what are your end goals. A good education is the best way and not just for working in and around fossils.

Join a fossil group start your own collection of books enjoy it all, get to know people who work at your local museum , volunteer

I went back to school in my late fifties, I was even older then some of the profs and now I have a paper for my wall

Dose any know how many paleontologist are really working in your state or province

[Scylla]

A paleontologist is someone who studies paleontology, OK. But not all paleontologists are equal. Do you want to expand the human understanding of the fossil record? Or just collect and "educate" the general public? As someone who has some scientific knowledge and experience let me just say that even talented amatures rarely have the depth and breath of knowledge that the formally educated proffesionals have. I cannot even start to tell you the thrill of being the first to discover some new aspect of science. But the hard part is the rigor necessary to pass the hurdles of peer review. It is a level of care and thought that we rarely achieve. Please don't buy the argument that you can learn any scientific (or probably any university major) just from the books.

As far as higher education goes, think of it as a brain workout. Runners need to lift wieghts, weight lifters need to run. Scientists need english, english majors need science (more than they get) and everyone needs math. If you cannot go this year (can't afford it, have to take care of a sick parent, didn't get into a good school, whatever) don't give up on the goal, just wait for the right time and try again.

[piranha]

Larsa,

One thing is certain, the esteemed members of TFF offer a wealth of sublime advice and life strategies for you to contemplate as you formulate your personal path of paleontological pursuits. Everything I've read here is inspiring and wonderful. Not the least of which is your profound passion which by osmosis is quite exciting to behold. You'll soon discover what path will best nurture your love of paleontology and in that process you'll also figure out how to best make yourself accessible in a mutually beneficial way for all. That I'm certain of, how it will eventually manifest is the fun part, the journey that like all others begins with a majestic first step. It's less about getting there than about how you made a difference along the way. I'm convinced you'll succeed in any event and you've made a very fine start so far! Your magnificent attitude and conviction of purpose will carry you to unimaginable heights if you only continue to want it!

Way to go Larsa and Good Luck as you map the road to a happy destiny!

[jpc]

Thanks everyone

I dont want to publish anything or try to become famous, I just want to know the material just beacuse and use it everyday to look for fossils. I want to go out and look for fossils with other paleontologists for local museum displays and being part of a paleo team whether im self taught or college trained. I feel like some things cant be taught in college and hands on experience is highly important when learning. I would love to join the DPS and find fossils together with the other members and having a job somewhere on the side, maybe at a science museum! I already work at one and everyday I feel like a paleontologist beacause I enjoy teaching people about their fossils they bring in for me to ID. I have been told I do an amazing job because of how much I already know and how happy I make all the visitors when I educate them. I guess I would like to also do prep work. I got to help set up an air abrasive station yesterday and I am gonna learn how to use one eventually.

Larsa-

It sounds like you are pretty happy in your position and that that may be what you want to do for now. Getting a paleo degree won't help too much there, but you will gain more and more experience and knowledge just every day at the museum. Join the DPS and do stuff with them. I think you are on the right path for Larsa. But, as others have said, keep the end goal in mind.

Take classes when you can; learn some geology, learn some this-ology and that-ology. Take ornithology... everyone likes birds (biased opinion there). Take some education classes. All of it will make you a better educator at the museum. There's also lots to learn from working with those folks with a PhD at the end of their names. Life is a lifelong learning experience, especially if you make it so. And it sounds to me like you have the curiousity and desire to actively do so.

There's a lot of good advice in this thread... whatever you decide (and that can change), we will all be rooting for you. Good luck.

[Paleoc]

As far as college, if you plan on a career in food services or janitorial engineering, don't go. If you would like to make a living, do go to college. You can dream that you will be successful and rich without college, or you can be successful and possibly rich with it.

In 6 years you can have a masters degree, or simply be 6 years older. Its up to you.

Good Luck!

Ditto!

If you want to be a professional Paleontologist, get a degree in Paleobiology or Paleontology or a related Geology degree. Keep in mind that the pay is not very good, but the people that work in this field do it because they love what they are doing.

Or

Get a degree in something else and do your paleontological work on the side. My degree and my work pay for my hobby.

Either way, get a degree! Life (and food and clothing and housing) aren't free.

[Boesse]

As a paleontologist I feel obligated to give my two cents. I'd say there are many folks with a paleontologic background to their job - i.e. educators, museum workers, etc. Paleontologists in the strict sense conduct research - field and laboratory research, and publish it. There are some folks who get into paleo just from an academic perspective, and rarely go into the field - I (and many others) consider them to be in another category, paleobiologists.

Being able to conduct field investigations or any sort of field work is a blast - possibly the most fun aspect of anything related to paleo. Publishing and contributing to the body of scientific knowledge is by far and away the most rewarding experience possible. I do both in order to maximize my fun/reward potential.

The point is, research is relatively difficult to conduct without any education - anyone can go out and dig up bones. But in order to ask a scientifically useful question, and then figure out the right types of data (field or laboratory, or both) to properly address that question - pretty much requires a masters-level education.

That being said, it is commonplace (the norm I sould say) for master's students to have a bachelor's degree in a marginally related field (biology, geology, earth science, history of science) or even unrelated field (statistics/mathematics, engineering, classics). Very few schools have a paleo undergrad program - and even those that do (Montana State U, my school) have a 'paleo option' with an earth sciences degree. Generally - anyone with any education (B.S., M.S., Ph.D.) can do research.

It all depends on your definition of a paleontologist - the general definition among paleontologists is someone who conducts paleontologic research (with some variations on that).

Bobby

[snaggle]

Im down to the fact college is not an option in life anytime soon and iv thought about it long and hard in my bed everynight before I rest. I personaly learn all the material I know from borowed or bought college paleontology books rather than taking 6 years of college classes and I think its dumb I would have to take classes that thave nothing to do with paleontology.

My bestie tells me that I shouldnt have to have a piece of paper telling me who I am based off 6 years of bookwork when amatuers can understand college level palelontology vocab and its an easy subject to pick up rather than being a doctor( something you need college experience for). He says I am already a paleontologist because of what all I learn from being outside connecting with ancient ecosystems so much and reading about them 24/7. He also thinks that the way I respect fossils makes me a true paleontologist. I know self-taught paleontologists out there who are respected and didnt even take any paleontology college courses. I enjoy working at at a science center where I teach people everyday about our ancient ecosystems, identify specimen and ages, learning about fossils that are new to me, and Im learning about fossil prep too. I may be still very young and learning new material all the time but please see its not just some "hobby" to me its basically who i am and im nothing special without it because thats my talent I was given.

Hi Larsa. I'm going to chime in here and share some thoughts.

Getting a degree of some type can be beneficial with earning potential. But I believe that you need to be very careful and thoughtful about what degree to pursue, if and when the time is right to pursue college work.

We are in an education bubble. Students are being recruited into university programs in which the job prospects are very limited.... but the department needs bodies to get funding and grants so students are recruited. And the more students a professor has, the better for getting tenure (an assistant/associate professor's prize). And the department needs a certain number of students to insure its own survival. The end results are more student graduates than the job market in that field can handle. There are even fewer job prospects for jobs at the PhD level. I'm going to guess that paleontology is one of these fields that can't absorb all of the new PhD's coming out of the universities.

This isn't so for every field but the smaller the department/program, the more likely this will occur.

You have a passion for paleontology. You are already working in the field and continuing your education by your reading. Teaching at the science center fits with possibly building on education. Working in a museum/science center fits with business/management that could open doors to museum curator/director. Volunteering, amateur groups.... that all builds your knowledge base and your resume. Thinking outside the box a little may lead you to fulfill your passion in a 'round about way and may lead to a career in this field.

[Scylla]

November unemployment rate for High School Grads 10%

November unemployment rate for College Grads 5.1%

Any questions?

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf

[snaggle]

November unemployment rate for High School Grads 10%

November unemployment rate for College Grads 5.1%

Any questions?

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/empsit.pdf

I won't argue with that.

My concern is that one needs to be very careful and thoughtful about WHAT field to spend time, effort and ENORMOUS amounts of money in. There IS an education bubble. There ARE PhD grads who cannot get work in their field. And they were surprised by that ugly fact after all of their work and time and money was spent because no one in their department told them.

http://www.the-scientist.com/news/print/55888/

"Nonetheless, interest in dinosaurs and paleontology is still widespread, if attendance at natural history museums is any indicator. But the job market for paleontologists in most countries is abysmal and getting worse, threatening the entire field with extinction (for more details, see my new book, Greenhouse of the Dinonsaurs, Chapter 10). In the US, fewer than one in ten graduate students (who spend at least ten years in college getting a hard-earned PhD) find a job as a professional paleontologist, either in a museum or a teaching job that allows research. When a paleontologist retires from a university, she's typically not replaced by another paleontologist. In many cases, generations of accumulated knowledge and expertise are lost because there are no jobs and therefore no students to learn from aging mentors.

In addition, there is very little grant funding available for paleontological research. There are at best only a few hundred professional paleontologists around the world, and they must scrape by on shoestring budgets."

So while 94.9% of college grads are employed, how many of them are working at McDonalds? How many employed graduates are doing something 180 degrees from their intended goal? That isn't a bad thing if you understood that to be a possibility and were ok with finding employment in another field if it comes to that. But if your heart and soul is set on one field and a PhD........ you must know what you may be up against.

I suggested to Larsa to build on her current work with (If and when the time is right) education, business, management and to continue to be active in volunteer, self-education, current work, amateur clubs, etc in the field of paleontology. There are interdisciplinarian studies that allow a student to create a degree that may be of more value than a masters or PhD in paleontology. Job prospects increase with an associates degree. You can chip away at a degree if that is the only way. Just be thoughtful about what the field and ultimate degree/goal is.

[32fordboy]

"November unemployment rate for High School Grads 10%

November unemployment rate for College Grads 5.1%

Any questions?"

We have to remember, though, most college grads get jobs with money-making companies, not organizations that are making due, trying to ride out the storm.

Personally, I don't believe it takes a piece of paper to get a job in a field you enjoy. Just believe in yourself and do it. Some of the most famous paleontologists had no degree. However, when it comes to paleontology, it's a gamble not having a degree--if you have your heart set on studying and publishing, the degree is probably necessary.

I considered getting a degree in paleontology and didn't. I've turned 3 hobbies into a job. The passion for those hobbies died as they became "business as usual". Paleontology is too cool for me to lose the same way, though I know others thoroughly enjoy the job. Just one more thing to think about.

Edited January 1, 2011 by 32fordboy

[Scylla]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not proposing that you must turn your hobby into your job; I didn't. If you asked me from about age 5 on to age 17 I was going to be a geologist, paleontologist or archeologist. I'm in an unrelated field altogether. But If you can get a degree, do it. Many grads get jobs outside their fields, yes, but they get jobs.