BobWill Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 I think this has been discussed before but I couldn't find it. We've all probably seen the crinoid stems with what looks like bite marks like these. My question is WHY? Do creatures bite them looking for a meal? They don't seem very nutritious. Is it frustration at them being in the way when they're chasing prey? I understand we may never know but has this ever been researched? Also, have they been found bitten all the way through, or with ends that look nibbled on? Are present-day sea lily stems eaten or even just bitten by anything with teeth this large? Feel free to add your own crinoid-stem-bite-related questions to this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 i know that sponge borings have been a source of damage but not sure what other external sources or disease may cause abnormalities in columnar segments like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas-Tunnel Rat Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 (edited) Its easier to grab a stem than the flower itself. Sea lilies today have this nasty habit of having defense mechanisms on the top part. So image your fleshy self trying to chomp on the top of a flower that will hurt you. Attack from the sides and you have a better chance of consuming your foodstuff. However, not sure they are bite marks. I think they are just broken in section (Doesnt help looking with a cell phone). Starfish would be able to have an esier time going after tops. My only reason is I dont see any calcitic secretion or markings of crinoidal regeration. I recommend watching this video seeing Crinoids are very simular to Sea Anemone's back then. NOT FOR SENSITVE PEOPLE Now back to my statment think if you were a fish going to attack the top of a crinoid for a free snack. You would get grabbed and or stung from the flower. Hence the somewhat softer stem is less protected, one of the reasons why some either develop the secreations and or spines. And tracer is correct on the borings. Crustacians and Sponges (I currently think its an acidic slime) and to a degree starfish can and will bore into things. But as I look at the photos they look like they were crushed in a geologic process....I need a microscope, do they make an app for that? Edited November 15, 2011 by Texas-Tunnel Rat PUBLICATIONS Dallas Paleontology Society Occasional Papers Vol. 9 2011 "Pennsylvanian Stratigraphy and Paleoecology of Outcrops in Jacksboro, Texas" Author Texas Paleontology Society Feb, 2011 "Index Fossils and You" A primer on how to utilize fossils to assist in relative age dating strata" Author Quotes "Beer, Bacon, and Bivalves!" "Say NO to illegal fossil buying / selling" "They belong in a museum." Education Associates of Science - 2011 Bachelors of Science (Geology & Biology) - 2012 est. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 I think these stems definitely suffered trauma, and darn if it doesn't look like teeth were involved! I can't discern any signs of healing, so the damage might have been mortal (or eventually so), or the damage might have occurred postmortem (but pre-fossilization). I visualize small prey fleeing to the shelter of a crinoid patch, and the predator lunging and getting a mouthful of stem. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 after reading a bit, i'm thinking it could have been any number of critters biting them. ran into the usual problems of articles being for sale, but saw one talking about predators of the paleozoic and there was a bunch of them. then found this on who all was chomping crinoids during the cretaceous - link don't think it was a good idea of crinoids to have a holdfast. seems like being a captive critter makes you eligible to star only in movies that are sessile be de meal productions. get it? get it?!? omg, that was like my best one ever, so please have gotten it. goodnite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scylla Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 (edited) :lol: got it Edited November 15, 2011 by Scylla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted November 15, 2011 Author Share Posted November 15, 2011 gasp...snort..regroup...yep...maybe your best ever!!! Oh, and great link too. It answers just about all my questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 He's here all week, folks! "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnJ Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Another good reason I like cidaroid urchins. The human mind has the ability to believe anything is true. - JJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 (edited) Interesting post and good to see similar specimens to what I have found at my Pennsylvanian locality in Missouri Middle Pennsylvanian Series - Desmoinesian Stage Marmaton Group - Altamont Formation - St Louis, MO Unusual parasitic markings on crinoid column...My Link Below the pictures on the web page there is an interesting discussion. Note: Dr. Roger K. Pabian (a close friend) passed away recently and those who are familiar with the name knew he was a most knowledgeable crinoid expert Large cropped scan of the markings Wondering if the your specimens are also from the Pennsylvanian PS: When I found the above specimen...I also thought of bite markings Edited November 27, 2011 by Indy Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Out of all the crinoids I've seen, I haven't run across that yet.. I'll have to look closer. Very interesting I think.. Welcome to the forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erose Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 You can find stem sections with swollen galls where something has bored in and the crinoid grew out around it. But the images you show are different. It will be interesting to learn more about this as I have a few similar specimens. Tunnel Rat, I've never heard of any echinoderm that could "sting." Can you give us an example? Other than being sessile (only to a degree) anemones and crinoids are very different critters. The video was interesting although I felt a bit sorry for the goldfish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 You can find stem sections with swollen galls where something has bored in and the crinoid grew out around it. But the images you show are different. It will be interesting to learn more about this as I have a few similar specimens. Mark Palatas comments below the picture on the website (Link) states these specific type of markings are rare Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erose Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Mark Palatas comments below the picture on the website (Link) states these specific type of markings are rare Depending on the collecting site (here in Texas) I will pick up bags of stems to use as give-aways with school kids. After getting them home I will sort thru them looking for the odd ones. Mostly I am looking for bryozoans, but galls and other weird things diverted them into my collection. I especially like these weird trace fossils that are not easy to identify or even attribute to a particular critter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Depending on the collecting site (here in Texas) I will pick up bags of stems to use as give-aways with school kids. After getting them home I will sort thru them looking for the odd ones. Mostly I am looking for bryozoans, but galls and other weird things diverted them into my collection. I especially like these weird trace fossils that are not easy to identify or even attribute to a particular critter. If you find any of these rare type markings...Please post some pictures. This is an excellent thread on the subject and someday it will come up again and this post can be referenced Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kehbe Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 (edited) You can find stem sections with swollen galls where something has bored in and the crinoid grew out around it. But the images you show are different. It will be interesting to learn more about this as I have a few similar specimens. Tunnel Rat, I've never heard of any echinoderm that could "sting." Can you give us an example? Other than being sessile (only to a degree) anemones and crinoids are very different critters. The video was interesting although I felt a bit sorry for the goldfish. I had saltwater aquariums for quite some time and a staple inhabitant was the feather duster tube worms whose tube is similar to sea lilies and such. They are strictly filter feeders and usually not stinging (lacking the nematocyst cells). I did however, often lose these worms to certain urchins who would inadvertantly crowd the worm and trapping it between itself and a rock, puncture it with it's spines. Also, even though I never witnessed it first hand, I suspected my pencil urchins of 'nibbling' on the stems. Here is a link to a discussion about activity in a reef aquarium, .. http://www.livingreefs.com/pincushion-urchin-eating-feather-duster-t32243.html Edited November 27, 2011 by Kehbe It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change. Charles Darwin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobWill Posted November 27, 2011 Author Share Posted November 27, 2011 I wonder how the marks here compare to other marks known to be from borings. Does anyone have pictures for comparison? I'm having trouble reconciling the indentations around the holes with what I think of as a bore, but that may be because the term "bore" suggests a rotary maneuver to me rather that a puncture. I guess creatures with rotating mouths are pretty rare in the animal world (I do have a vague memory of a worm or something with a mouth or teeth like that). In the link from Indy, Dr. Pabian mentioned that he hadn't seen the markings with the kind of alignment that would suggest bites, but those I posted here might, especially the second one. The pictures show both sides of the same specimens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 (edited) I understand the appearance gives a mental image of bite marks but based on my research into the subject (years ago)..they are not bite marks. However, you just never know what new information will surface to indicate otherwise. Your specimens are interesting because the markings appear on both sides and understand why bite marks are on the table as a possibility The crinoid stem I posted above...The other side is perfectly normal with no markings...So that would rule out a mouth biting my specimen It would really be interesting to find other members who have these in their collection and get those pictures posted here for comparison as well as a permanent archive. Edited November 27, 2011 by Indy Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas-Tunnel Rat Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 (edited) I wonder how the marks here compare to other marks known to be from borings. Does anyone have pictures for comparison? I'm having trouble reconciling the indentations around the holes with what I think of as a bore, but that may be because the term "bore" suggests a rotary maneuver to me rather that a puncture. I guess creatures with rotating mouths are pretty rare in the animal world (I do have a vague memory of a worm or something with a mouth or teeth like that). In the link from Indy, Dr. Pabian mentioned that he hadn't seen the markings with the kind of alignment that would suggest bites, but those I posted here might, especially the second one. The pictures show both sides of the same specimens. My thoughts would be that the indentations could be post mordem and or the gripping action of the animal attempting to "bore" (But I think the specimens here are post modem geologically damaged. A "Bore" action IIRC would be "Any action that allows one to biologically enact a way to bypass natural defenses by either weathering and or findng ways to collect energy to promote natural" There are many critters that can "Bore" and different types. Excluding the lower forms like worms 1. Arthropods (Termites, any digging bug crestacans) 2. Bivalves (Chipping through debris to access more food sources) 3. Acid Secreation (My favorite, rumored that some gastropods and carboniferious mosses could produce) Edited November 27, 2011 by Texas-Tunnel Rat PUBLICATIONS Dallas Paleontology Society Occasional Papers Vol. 9 2011 "Pennsylvanian Stratigraphy and Paleoecology of Outcrops in Jacksboro, Texas" Author Texas Paleontology Society Feb, 2011 "Index Fossils and You" A primer on how to utilize fossils to assist in relative age dating strata" Author Quotes "Beer, Bacon, and Bivalves!" "Say NO to illegal fossil buying / selling" "They belong in a museum." Education Associates of Science - 2011 Bachelors of Science (Geology & Biology) - 2012 est. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Before Dr. Pabian passed away...I talked to him in person and in part we talked about these markings. He said these specific markings are rare and has never seen the alignment indicating bite marks. He went on to say (as archived on the website) "Unfortunately, a lot of paleontologists have simply attributed these markings to myzostomes and I think there are many more commensals, parasites, or predators that have left marks on crinoids. Bottom line...He was saying "Good Luck finding any Paleontologist who has or is willing to do serious research on these specific markings. Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erose Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 If you find any of these rare type markings...Please post some pictures. This is an excellent thread on the subject and someday it will come up again and this post can be referenced Kinda busy and the stems are buried in the collection somewhere. The galls I had were collected in the Upper Silurian Hunton Group of Oklahoma and traded to Dr. James Sprinkle at UT. He is an echinoderm specialist. But I did have this specimen handy. Borings (unsuccessful?) into the base of a crinoid cup. The specimen is from the Wilson Clay Pit here in Texas, Late Pennsylvanian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indy Posted November 27, 2011 Share Posted November 27, 2011 Kinda busy and the stems are buried in the collection somewhere. The galls I had were collected in the Upper Silurian Hunton Group of Oklahoma and traded to Dr. James Sprinkle at UT. He is an echinoderm specialist. But I did have this specimen handy. Borings (unsuccessful?) into the base of a crinoid cup. The specimen is from the Wilson Clay Pit here in Texas, Late Pennsylvanian. Oh...That is so Cooool and its Pennsylvanian !! The geometric V shape pattern is breath-taking the culprit could be hired to drill the holes in dice Flash from the Past (Show Us Your Fossils)MAPS Fossil Show Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 paleo dice! and you rolled a seven! keep it! you can roll a seven every time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erose Posted November 29, 2011 Share Posted November 29, 2011 It was a LUCKY find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wrangellian Posted November 30, 2011 Share Posted November 30, 2011 Interesting specimen, sure looks like some kind of borings to me! As for the earlier stem specimens, I don't know if a bite or a boring would produce that distorted, inflated look to the stem - I don't know how rigid the stem skeleton was but if it had any rigidity I doubt they would twist and inflate like that, unless they gradually distorted after the fact during the healing process? Also post-mortem damage sounds unlikely for the same reasons. Point is I dont think it was a sudden deformation. That still leaves a lot of things, though, mainly in the infection category (fungus gall, sponge or whathaveyou). As I always say, I'm no expert, these are just my opinions as an observant amateur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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