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ziggycardon

I just recieved a box with a random assortment of Kem Kem fossils and I was wondering if some of you might help out with some of the ID's

161531483032245201.jpg.5881cf0422f0dc3466f4492832de0d66.jpg

 

1) A fish scute, Adrianaichthys (Lepidotes) pankowskii would be my guess. 

1959868476_161531483032245201(1).jpg.6134b062e3753fea417c36aa8b840dce.jpg

 

2) Another Adrianaichthys (Lepidotes) pankowskii scale?

1235367275_161531483032245201(2).jpg.97367df7410bcaaf9328030b555904f1.jpg

1723924860_161531483032245201(3).jpg.c3ea71372ac537acdee78ed462f566f6.jpg

 

 

3) A small bone, turtle perhaps?

1315882487_161531483032245201(4).jpg.c8362b8074ed30b4edfb9fbd2473cd92.jpg

528728696_161531483032245201(5).jpg.7c646d721f9d52731f6d38de04f7108f.jpg

 

4) Crocodile osteoderm

 1143822942_161531483032245201(6).jpg.cd9ec2cf18df426dd48c4bd8e49d4ac0.jpg

 

 

5) Crocodile osteoderm

587928857_161531483032245201(7).jpg.c235994b33a4caa81baf21342c670c32.jpg

87107281_161531483032245201(8).jpg.bc5910f2d3f207f0a3405bcdb26e63ad.jpg

 

6) I often see similar fossil sold as Kem Kem coprolites

1780396841_161531483032245201(9).jpg.33031c4e7cea970bbefdae2c3aeff658.jpg

1014005347_161531483032245201(10).jpg.49035facc595d24fecfb0e973ce38670.jpg

 

7) base of an Onchopristis numides rostrum tooth

712979720_161531483032245201(11).jpg.7a49a4a562bb33d864f05d937b8eac34.jpg

 

 

8) A large fish vert, could it be Chondrichthyan like Onchopristis or probably just bony fish?

1423208264_161531483032245201(12).jpg.a07874b71a39ac0aa81ebe15c4972f05.jpg2133335729_161531483032245201(13).jpg.208cb80aa29776e24b0360c5f0308907.jpg

 

 

9) A fish vert?

1543093187_161531483032245201(14).jpg.9dd64871ec020e13cd60639f992b8619.jpg

1937051264_161531483032245201(15).jpg.dd27a707f23a67d13daa43aedccaf3d4.jpg

 

 

10) Spinosaurid tooth

420891900_161531483032245201(16).jpg.78fc4a15c04965797f840b83f2140b5b.jpg

160193031_161531483032245201(17).jpg.a582add7ee614ea1ff9d004a2c8e3d84.jpg

710366711_161531483032245201(18).jpg.f55de3d490295b19e09fd782d04c9b52.jpg

61816918_161531483032245201(19).jpg.5c771c3714669bc82ab4c0a642a92989.jpg

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ziggycardon

11) My guess would be crocodile vert

242563334_161531483032245201(20).jpg.35dddfa2c766b16525f87b55f02bf0f8.jpg

138132417_161531483032245201(21).jpg.32cdd2487d97e8a571c6caed87efdbd5.jpg

1947832863_161531483032245201(22).jpg.64e839783bb2e70393da8c58d185096a.jpg

2083748450_161531483032245201(23).jpg.3ad7797776b47b61b8ae92b4d96acb9c.jpg

1800378984_161531483032245201(24).jpg.2331ec693fedb6f0225f09f83bdfe40f.jpg

909399057_161531483032245201(25).jpg.25c85916426f89e0e60e50e5c2688901.jpg

1912037694_161531483032245201(26).jpg.42a364c192a58ed8175052f700ed135d.jpg

 

12) Another croc vert

377869620_161531483032245201(27).jpg.738a2e96560aa80e176d7af8d3fb8b99.jpg

1070702021_161531483032245201(28).jpg.cbf7495cf6d9998d1dd2484df3f3f193.jpg

1512468839_161531483032245201(29).jpg.569bb40c1e4b3052aa0e9c43460a6ff7.jpg

1803957984_161531483032245201(30).jpg.dd1eda4daa23c4cf0e82b02eb2cd0be1.jpg

1804810434_161531483032245201(31).jpg.27f8738ff76d11e04e7848b135fc2f6a.jpg

623627845_161531483032245201(32).jpg.49775a475b8c76a9e63508dfff514412.jpg

66768324_161531483032245201(33).jpg.473cf9377e0dbd600b9d428091f099d6.jpg

1497298686_161531483032245201(34).jpg.90febe943d40eaab5c5da1bd78754eb3.jpg

 

 

13) A large vert, is it from a very large croc or maybe dinosaurian? 

1073337020_161531483032245201(35).jpg.f53c6906a2544ee2a7d6b6f5c74fcaac.jpg

1861324700_161531483032245201(36).jpg.1681b7fcbc7eef04eeef7795e1a79666.jpg

980840083_161531483032245201(37).jpg.f11072eee542c2660539778368ab62b8.jpg

1546941542_161531483032245201(38).jpg.8de2d5bc08deb058b666eba1c3bfe15c.jpg

1948612032_161531483032245201(39).jpg.b9a7ed9794984503ad2d5d9e746cf480.jpg

1718578191_161531483032245201(40).jpg.ab3d0cd956b33076f2ea2f0cbb8ddafc.jpg

1457148733_161531483032245201(41).jpg.7f1890d29106c55d8b80cbcc60a2c14c.jpg

1711127460_161531483032245201(42).jpg.8ca8e6b9812423364eb3bc6c32284d89.jpg

 

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ziggycardon

14) A bone, maybe crocodile?

1511026891_161531483032245201(43).jpg.e6d06e6d3467a106a261f96b35e819ff.jpg

202829085_161531483032245201(44).jpg.5eba41ce1229c7c643a1ceae81a172a8.jpg

380131351_161531483032245201(45).jpg.93d7cb8bc1cac6c2135171ce5f87aa8c.jpg

1134086972_161531483032245201(46).jpg.f09ed7f03eece5d10cfe953073c8f600.jpg

1637548283_161531483032245201(47).jpg.d2e4f9140d255bb40a95ac2e9c3bc51e.jpg

625733950_161531483032245201(48).jpg.bd487c3787d924da74871e053f268d07.jpg

 

15) Another bone

1664829415_161531483032245201(49).jpg.69dbade23383a1e09c8de8b46f4efbb6.jpg

465144236_161531483032245201(50).jpg.0c6d71793decfa08a15a3c1c7924faef.jpg

1859687510_161531483032245201(51).jpg.4b24f838bee7958defc2fcea1cfe166a.jpg

852064934_161531483032245201(52).jpg.cfe6ce9264400fae2282dde593fda552.jpg

 

 

16) The last and the most intruguing piece of the box is this unknown bone which looks like it belongs to a jaw or beak.
Is it from a fish or maybe even a pterosaur, not really sure what this piece could be though.

1224516136_161531483032245201(53).jpg.9b31bc1a790f9c58cfa5a56289d2c62c.jpg

1903337674_161531483032245201(54).jpg.fe9b721aa2e4f21f51c86d8daf334e33.jpg

1140145392_161531483032245201(55).jpg.99865fc680769aee07e875096500ad4c.jpg

301145776_161531483032245201(56).jpg.0ab52bcb80c64f1dba4f159a54bb18c3.jpg

180593048_161531483032245201(57).jpg.376fe7d5c092fec21d61f00340da6411.jpg

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LordTrilobite
1 hour ago, ziggycardon said:

I just recieved a box with a random assortment of Kem Kem fossils and I was wondering if some of you might help out with some of the ID's

161531483032245201.jpg.5881cf0422f0dc3466f4492832de0d66.jpg

 

1) A fish scute, Adrianaichthys (Lepidotes) pankowskii would be my guess. 

1959868476_161531483032245201(1).jpg.6134b062e3753fea417c36aa8b840dce.jpg

 

2) Another Adrianaichthys (Lepidotes) pankowskii scale?

1235367275_161531483032245201(2).jpg.97367df7410bcaaf9328030b555904f1.jpg1723924860_161531483032245201(3).jpg.c3ea71372ac537acdee78ed462f566f6.jpg

 

 

3) A small bone, turtle perhaps?

1315882487_161531483032245201(4).jpg.c8362b8074ed30b4edfb9fbd2473cd92.jpg528728696_161531483032245201(5).jpg.7c646d721f9d52731f6d38de04f7108f.jpg

 

4) Crocodile osteoderm

 1143822942_161531483032245201(6).jpg.cd9ec2cf18df426dd48c4bd8e49d4ac0.jpg

 

 

5) Crocodile osteoderm

587928857_161531483032245201(7).jpg.c235994b33a4caa81baf21342c670c32.jpg87107281_161531483032245201(8).jpg.bc5910f2d3f207f0a3405bcdb26e63ad.jpg

 

6) I often see similar fossil sold as Kem Kem coprolites

1780396841_161531483032245201(9).jpg.33031c4e7cea970bbefdae2c3aeff658.jpg1014005347_161531483032245201(10).jpg.49035facc595d24fecfb0e973ce38670.jpg

 

7) base of an Onchopristis numides rostrum tooth

712979720_161531483032245201(11).jpg.7a49a4a562bb33d864f05d937b8eac34.jpg

 

 

8) A large fish vert, could it be Chondrichthyan like Onchopristis or probably just bony fish?

1423208264_161531483032245201(12).jpg.a07874b71a39ac0aa81ebe15c4972f05.jpg2133335729_161531483032245201(13).jpg.208cb80aa29776e24b0360c5f0308907.jpg

 

 

9) A fish vert?

1543093187_161531483032245201(14).jpg.9dd64871ec020e13cd60639f992b8619.jpg1937051264_161531483032245201(15).jpg.dd27a707f23a67d13daa43aedccaf3d4.jpg

 

 

10) Spinosaurid tooth

420891900_161531483032245201(16).jpg.78fc4a15c04965797f840b83f2140b5b.jpg160193031_161531483032245201(17).jpg.a582add7ee614ea1ff9d004a2c8e3d84.jpg710366711_161531483032245201(18).jpg.f55de3d490295b19e09fd782d04c9b52.jpg61816918_161531483032245201(19).jpg.5c771c3714669bc82ab4c0a642a92989.jpg

1, 2, 4, Yeah that seems right.
7, yup
8, 9 yeah both look like fish.
10, nice tooth. It seems like it has some wrinkling going on on the carinae. Does it have any serrations?

1 hour ago, ziggycardon said:

11) My guess would be crocodile vert

242563334_161531483032245201(20).jpg.35dddfa2c766b16525f87b55f02bf0f8.jpg138132417_161531483032245201(21).jpg.32cdd2487d97e8a571c6caed87efdbd5.jpg1947832863_161531483032245201(22).jpg.64e839783bb2e70393da8c58d185096a.jpg2083748450_161531483032245201(23).jpg.3ad7797776b47b61b8ae92b4d96acb9c.jpg1800378984_161531483032245201(24).jpg.2331ec693fedb6f0225f09f83bdfe40f.jpg909399057_161531483032245201(25).jpg.25c85916426f89e0e60e50e5c2688901.jpg1912037694_161531483032245201(26).jpg.42a364c192a58ed8175052f700ed135d.jpg

 

12) Another croc vert

377869620_161531483032245201(27).jpg.738a2e96560aa80e176d7af8d3fb8b99.jpg1070702021_161531483032245201(28).jpg.cbf7495cf6d9998d1dd2484df3f3f193.jpg1512468839_161531483032245201(29).jpg.569bb40c1e4b3052aa0e9c43460a6ff7.jpg1803957984_161531483032245201(30).jpg.dd1eda4daa23c4cf0e82b02eb2cd0be1.jpg1804810434_161531483032245201(31).jpg.27f8738ff76d11e04e7848b135fc2f6a.jpg623627845_161531483032245201(32).jpg.49775a475b8c76a9e63508dfff514412.jpg66768324_161531483032245201(33).jpg.473cf9377e0dbd600b9d428091f099d6.jpg1497298686_161531483032245201(34).jpg.90febe943d40eaab5c5da1bd78754eb3.jpg

 

 

13) A large vert, is it from a very large croc or maybe dinosaurian? 

1073337020_161531483032245201(35).jpg.f53c6906a2544ee2a7d6b6f5c74fcaac.jpg1861324700_161531483032245201(36).jpg.1681b7fcbc7eef04eeef7795e1a79666.jpg980840083_161531483032245201(37).jpg.f11072eee542c2660539778368ab62b8.jpg1546941542_161531483032245201(38).jpg.8de2d5bc08deb058b666eba1c3bfe15c.jpg1948612032_161531483032245201(39).jpg.b9a7ed9794984503ad2d5d9e746cf480.jpg1718578191_161531483032245201(40).jpg.ab3d0cd956b33076f2ea2f0cbb8ddafc.jpg1457148733_161531483032245201(41).jpg.7f1890d29106c55d8b80cbcc60a2c14c.jpg1711127460_161531483032245201(42).jpg.8ca8e6b9812423364eb3bc6c32284d89.jpg

11 is a croc cervical vert.
12 and 13 both look like dorsal verts to me. Dunno what type.

1 hour ago, ziggycardon said:

14) A bone, maybe crocodile?

1511026891_161531483032245201(43).jpg.e6d06e6d3467a106a261f96b35e819ff.jpg202829085_161531483032245201(44).jpg.5eba41ce1229c7c643a1ceae81a172a8.jpg380131351_161531483032245201(45).jpg.93d7cb8bc1cac6c2135171ce5f87aa8c.jpg1134086972_161531483032245201(46).jpg.f09ed7f03eece5d10cfe953073c8f600.jpg1637548283_161531483032245201(47).jpg.d2e4f9140d255bb40a95ac2e9c3bc51e.jpg625733950_161531483032245201(48).jpg.bd487c3787d924da74871e053f268d07.jpg

 

15) Another bone

1664829415_161531483032245201(49).jpg.69dbade23383a1e09c8de8b46f4efbb6.jpg465144236_161531483032245201(50).jpg.0c6d71793decfa08a15a3c1c7924faef.jpg1859687510_161531483032245201(51).jpg.4b24f838bee7958defc2fcea1cfe166a.jpg852064934_161531483032245201(52).jpg.cfe6ce9264400fae2282dde593fda552.jpg

 

 

16) The last and the most intruguing piece of the box is this unknown bone which looks like it belongs to a jaw or beak.
Is it from a fish or maybe even a pterosaur, not really sure what this piece could be though.

1224516136_161531483032245201(53).jpg.9b31bc1a790f9c58cfa5a56289d2c62c.jpg1903337674_161531483032245201(54).jpg.fe9b721aa2e4f21f51c86d8daf334e33.jpg1140145392_161531483032245201(55).jpg.99865fc680769aee07e875096500ad4c.jpg301145776_161531483032245201(56).jpg.0ab52bcb80c64f1dba4f159a54bb18c3.jpg180593048_161531483032245201(57).jpg.376fe7d5c092fec21d61f00340da6411.jpg

14, 15 hard to tell. Both look like parts of limbs. 14 looks like it might be a theropod tibia.
16 is definitely some type of skull bone. It's kinda weird how it looks almost symmetrical but not quite. I don't think it really looks like fish though.

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Troodon

Can you remove the matrix from inside of the ends of 14 and 15.  Need to determine if the bones are hollow. 

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ziggycardon

Thank you very much @LordTrilobite & @Troodon for taking a look at the stuff.


Here are some more pictures of fossils 14, 15 & 16


the bone of number 14 is quite dense and quite heavy and it was practically matrix free.
There is only a small hole in the middle. 

161540160465088866.jpg.977bbb3f07d6645ce1b85394143f9394.jpg

 

The bone of number 15 is indeed hollow, I did remove a little bit of matrix but I stopped because the bone wall was quite fragile. But yes this bone is filled with matrix and seem to be entirely hollow.

872423538_161540160465088866(1).jpg.d3d3f42da887d38583026426b4c19635.jpg182080241_161540160465088866(2).jpg.f90971832a811402f30e3c400dc2b9d5.jpg


As for the weird number 16, I did manage to clean it up quite nicely but I still can't really make much of it.

1642020386_161540160465088866(3).jpg.be3abc584276e65e987086f30d35906d.jpg

1465953024_161540160465088866(4).jpg.96b1935c01eb606da69044897b149df7.jpg

1868533877_161540160465088866(5).jpg.17bc9eb861baa255161a339fa5838855.jpg

2102294767_161540160465088866(6).jpg.bb0ba9a5c77f8917301af579ee263774.jpg

 

As for the Spinosaurid tooth, the edges are very worn so unfortunatly if it had any serrations all, the evidence of them is worn off. 
 

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Mahnmut
22 hours ago, LordTrilobite said:

16 is definitely some type of skull bone. It's kinda weird how it looks almost symmetrical but not quite

Could be a composite. I have been fooled by parts that looked so much like they belonged together...

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/101829-basilosaurid-neural-spine/&tab=comments#comment-1132660

 

Best Regards,

J

 

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LordTrilobite
13 minutes ago, Mahnmut said:

Could be a composite. I have been fooled by parts that looked so much like they belonged together...

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/101829-basilosaurid-neural-spine/&tab=comments#comment-1132660

 

Best Regards,

J

Nah, those pieces look like they fit together very nicely. The same goes for the fossils in your link. I don't believe any of those are composites. The breaks look to match pretty nicely.

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Troodon

My guess on 14 then is probable Croc.  15 is very cool and I would not remove any more matrix...very thin walled, and the skin texture most likely points to an agile Theropod.....

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Troodon

On 16 agree not a composite but no clue what it is

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Mahnmut

Thats what I thought about my fossil,

But no one here could tell me what part of the anatomy it could be,But the anatomy of the two ends just did not fit.and I learned that there are artists who have a big pile of chunkosaur and time to find and maybe adjust a pseudo- matching piece.

I would be happy to be convinced of the opposite though.

Cheers,

J

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ziggycardon

Thank you all for the replies and help! 
 

11 hours ago, Troodon said:

My guess on 14 then is probable Croc.  15 is very cool and I would not remove any more matrix...very thin walled, and the skin texture most likely points to an agile Theropod.....

That is pretty cool, I had hoped when I bought the box there might be a dino bone in it. So this will definiatly be a piece to treasure :) 

Should it be an agile Theropod, that might mean it could possibly belong to Deltadromeus, the undescribed dromaeosaurids or another undescribed species which would be pretty cool. I guess we will have to wait to see what papers about Kem Kem dinosaurs will tell us in the future. 

 

Btw, do we know the tickness of the walls of Deltadromeus bones? Because I know Deltadromeus is only known from postcranial fossils, but did they ever show/mention the tickness of those bones in any public paper?
 

11 hours ago, Mahnmut said:

Could be a composite. I have been fooled by parts that looked so much like they belonged together...

I've also been fooled by composites in the past and present, but I am pretty convinced this isn't one. 
Like LordTrilobite says the two piece match perfectly and I've looked under the microscope and tiny fractures match up on each side. 
But that still leaves the question as to what this fossil could be ofcourse, I guess I'll have to do some more reading. 

 

On 3/9/2021 at 9:11 PM, ziggycardon said:

5) A Crocodile osteoderm

587928857_161531483032245201(7).jpg.c235994b33a4caa81baf21342c670c32.jpg

87107281_161531483032245201(8).jpg.bc5910f2d3f207f0a3405bcdb26e63ad.jpg

 

As for fossils 5, I've been looking through Ibrahim's paper on the Kem Kem fauna assemblage and while not a perfect match, it resembles Araripemydid and Podocnemidinuran shell fragments. I feel this piece is a bit to recurved to be a croc osteoderm.

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LordTrilobite
17 hours ago, ziggycardon said:

The bone of number 15 is indeed hollow, I did remove a little bit of matrix but I stopped because the bone wall was quite fragile. But yes this bone is filled with matrix and seem to be entirely hollow.

872423538_161540160465088866(1).jpg.d3d3f42da887d38583026426b4c19635.jpg182080241_161540160465088866(2).jpg.f90971832a811402f30e3c400dc2b9d5.jpg

I think this is too thin for anything but birds or pterosaurs. As far as I know no non-avian theropod has bone walls this thin on something like a leg bone, especially at this size.

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Troodon
1 hour ago, LordTrilobite said:

I think this is too thin for anything but birds or pterosaurs. As far as I know no non-avian theropod has bone walls this thin on something like a leg bone, especially at this size.

Agree , I was also thinking pterosaurs but its round and very shiny.  Any bird around that would have such a big bone? 

 

 

 

 

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LordTrilobite

To be clear, I think bird is unlikely due to it's size. Kem Kem is still quite mysterious. I was just commenting on the thin bone wall. So, I think pterosaur is most likely.

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

Insofar as I can identify the fossils here (mainly 1, 2, 4, 6, 8 and 9), I'd say the identifications given pretty much match what I'd have said:

  • 1 & 2: Lepidotes-type fish scales
  • 4: Neosuchian crocodile scute - possibly Elosuchus cherifiensis, that these scutes typically get attributed to.
  • 6: Yup, seen these described as coprolites to. Looks phosphatic to my untrained eye, but may be @GeschWhat can confirm this.
  • 8 & 9: Fish verts, don't know what type, though I've indeed seen the #8-type being ascribed to Onchopristis...

As to 3, you might be right in it being turtle, as I've seen these being sold as turtle before. No idea whether that's correct, though.

 

3 hours ago, ziggycardon said:

As for fossils 5, I've been looking through Ibrahim's paper on the Kem Kem fauna assemblage and while not a perfect match, it resembles Araripemydid and Podocnemidinuran shell fragments. I feel this piece is a bit to recurved to be a croc osteoderm.

 

I also find this a bit too curved for a crocodile scute - not that I'm overly familiar with Kem Kem fauna... But as it appears to have a raised ridge to one side, I'd still be inclined to go with croc. May be from a smaller specimen, the tail, or something like that?

 

To 10 I'd also say spinosaurid, as there seems too little lateral compression for a crocodile tooth, the only other option I'd be willing to entertain, though with the exclusion of Elosuchus.

 

On 3/9/2021 at 11:08 PM, LordTrilobite said:

11 is a croc cervical vert.

 

As to 11 & 12: both look thalattosuchian to me - that is, sea-going crocodilian. Primarily because the vertebrae are both waisted and amphicoelous, with my understanding being that non-marine species of crocodile have procoelous vertebrae. Since thalattosuchians were no longer around when the Kem Kem sediments were laid down, I'm therefore rather uncertain whether these - or even just the one (i.e., 11) - are, in fact, crocodile vertebrae.

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
19 minutes ago, LordTrilobite said:

I think this is too thin for anything but birds or pterosaurs. As far as I know no non-avian theropod has bone walls this thin on something like a leg bone, especially at this size.

 

I agree. My first impression when I saw how thin the walls are was pterosaur. Seeing the size, couldn't this be Alanqa saharica or some other azhdarchid?

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ziggycardon

Thank you all! 
The walls are indeed very thin so it would indeed suit a flying lifestyle like that of pterosaurs which would be cool as I was looking to get some Kem Kem Pterosaur bone material in the future :) 

 

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Haravex

no 16 reminds me of mawsonia skull bone.

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pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon
1 hour ago, Haravex said:

no 16 reminds me of mawsonia skull bone.

 

Now that you mention it, the star-like structure on one side of this bone does remind me of what I've seen identified as fish in other places as well. I didn't realise earlier, as I'm not into fish myself. But it would be something I could get along with :)

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ziggycardon
5 hours ago, Haravex said:

no 16 reminds me of mawsonia skull bone.

I think you might be right, my initial though was fish because I though I once saw something similar but I couldn't place it. 
But now you mention Mawsonia I remember where I saw it before.

Thank you very much for helping out! :) 

 

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GeschWhat
On 3/11/2021 at 6:52 AM, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

6: Yup, seen these described as coprolites to. Looks phosphatic to my untrained eye, but may be @GeschWhat can confirm this.

Yes, you definitely have a nice little spiral fish (shark, ray, skate, lungfish, etc.) coprolite!

 

EDIT: I shouldn't have included lungfish. They produce amphipolar (the coils occur over 75% of its length) pellets. This coprolite would be considered heteropolar.

Edited by GeschWhat
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ziggycardon
14 hours ago, GeschWhat said:

Yes, you definitely have a nice little spiral fish (shark, ray, skate, lungfish, etc.) coprolite!

 

EDIT: I shouldn't have included lungfish. They produce amphipolar (the coils occur over 75% of its length) pellets. This coprolite would be considered heteropolar.

Thank you very much! I knew it was a coprolite, but it is good to also know to what it belonged :)

 

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