Does Anyone Here Use Hf For Prep?

[bobthemoose]

I was just curious if anyone here uses HF (Hydrofluoric acid)  for prep. I recently started using the stuff myself and it scares the bejeebus out of me. Heck at least there are antidotes for Sarin or VX, but from what I understand if you spill too much of the stuff on yourself you are just buggered - no matter what. I'm mainly curious if anyone has ever burned themselves with the acid, and if so what are the symptoms? How does it feel? Most of what I've been able to find on the web is overly broad, I was hoping for any warning signs I could watch out for. I had been leaning into my rock saw checking the progress of a cut the other day right after using some HF. 10 minutes later I'm in the car driving and notice what looks like a welt on my forearm in the sunshine of my open window. realization that i had just spent a few minutes with my arm leaning against the corner edge of an aluminum plate went right out the window at that time and all i could think of was the HF use. anything that might help avoid another embarrassing call to poison control would be appreciated TIA!

[lordpiney]

ive used muriatic acid in some prepping in the past. aside from a slightly sore throat from breathing in the vapors, i havent had any bad experiences. thankfully!

[2ynpigo]

HF is very dangerous. You need a splash suit, and a full face respirator to work with it with any degree of safety. It takes mucho bunches of baking soda (or some other base) to neutralize it when you're ready to dispose of it.

It ain't worth it.

[bobthemoose]

HF is very dangerous. You need a splash suit, and a full face respirator to work with it with any degree of safety.

i realize that and use the proper safety gear. that doesnt mean i'm impervious to a glove tear (even if i have 3 pair on). Thats why I was asking. From what i have read anything but the highest concentrations of HF dont produce a burning sensation (I'm using 50%). so is there *anything* to watch out for?

[palaeopix]

Hey Bob, I have to agree it's not worth it. That stuff will kill you if you are not careful. Forget I said that. Unless you are properly trained and equipped that stuff will kill you. When I was in college we were never allowed to handle the stuff.

What the heck are you trying to prep anyway As I recall HF will dissolve silicon dioxide (glass and many rocks). So unless you are trying to free organic remains from sedimentary rocks you really should not need to use HF. So stop it already. Did I mention that it is not worth it! If you need that type of fire power find someone with the proper safety protocols (like the local University Geology Department). Stay Safe.

[palaeopix]

i realize that and use the proper safety gear. that doesnt mean i'm impervious to a glove tear (even if i have 3 pair on). Thats why I was asking. From what i have read anything but the highest concentrations of HF dont produce a burning sensation (I'm using 50%). so is there *anything* to watch out for?

As I recall from my chemistry days even a small amount can do some serious damage. I also understand that residue left on containers can be a real problem. I don't know what to look for in terms of symptomology so you should check with your local poison control centre. Please be careful with that stuff.

[bobthemoose]

As I recall from my chemistry days even a small amount can do some serious damage. I also understand that residue left on containers can be a real problem. I don't know what to look for in terms of symptomology so you should check with your local poison control centre. Please be careful with that stuff.

poison control thinks you should go to the ER after every time you use hf... just to be sure.

but given the nature of the beast i understand their position.

I *AM* using proper safety gear. I'm not working with the stuff in my kitchen guys!

I was just hoping for some first hand experience to better educate myself of the dangers if i ever DO have an issue with it.

[Rødvig]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is this HF you are talking about? I'm not completely familiar with all these abbreviations.

[oilshale]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is this HF you are talking about? I'm not completely familiar with all these abbreviations.

Hydrofluoric Acid. A weak acid, known for it's ability to dissolve glass or quartz. Quite dangerous stuff: Got a small amount of diluted HF on my fingers (I am a chemist and had to work with it) - caused a peculiar numbness in my fingertips for two days.

Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid

[Rødvig]

Thanks

[tracer]

as i recall, you previously mentioned using boiling acetone to remove adhesive residue from labels on stuff. you need to examine how you are arriving at your decisions, and master the ability to just say "no" to unreasonably hazardous methods of dealing with routine issues. getting away with stuff once is fairly common, but routinely pushing your luck is a concept with a major fail programmed into it.

[glacialerratic]

getting away with stuff once is fairly common, but routinely pushing your luck is a concept with a major fail programmed into it.

I've never used the stuff, but I work in horticulture, and we use pesticides and fungicides. The danger with these is repeat exposure. The results are cancers.

[Taxman56]

An old company I worked for used to own a galvanizing plant. They thought HF was cheaper acid to use than what they set up for. After 5 years they ate all the metal panels off the 5 story building with just the fumes. And we had 20 ft long open vats.

You have hardly any control over the process

Edited March 29, 2010 by JohnJ
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[Seldom]

I used it in my stained glass work a few years ago. Even with gloves & respirator I had a numbness in my hands for several days. Went back to sandblasting slower but safer.

[Bill]

See this

I would think this part....

Because of the ability of hydrofluoric acid to penetrate tissue, poisoning can occur readily through exposure of skin or eyes, or when inhaled or swallowed. Symptoms of exposure to hydrofluoric acid may not be immediately evident. HF interferes with nerve function, meaning that burns may not initially be painful. Accidental exposures can go unnoticed, delaying treatment and increasing the extent and seriousness of the injury.

....was enough to put anyone off using HF. If you do get exposed and don't realise it, the delay in getting treatment can be very bad, if not fatal.

Edited March 29, 2010 by Bill

[bobthemoose]

as i recall, you previously mentioned using boiling acetone to remove adhesive residue from labels on stuff. you need to examine how you are arriving at your decisions, and master the ability to just say "no" to unreasonably hazardous methods of dealing with routine issues. getting away with stuff once is fairly common, but routinely pushing your luck is a concept with a major fail programmed into it.

*sigh* boiling acetone is a fairly common industrial technique. but thats not the point. i understand the material is dangerous. i'm using it in a fume hood, with a full face mask, with a full body tyvek suit on AND three pairs of gloves. one under the suit sleeve the other two over. i have caclium gluconate standing by just in case. when i thought i might have had an accidental exposure i was immediatly on the phone with poison control. I'm being about as cautious as one can be without giving the HF to someone else to use. this isnt an unreasonably hazardous solution to a routine issue, unless you know of an easier was to dissolve zirconia (my use has nothing to do with fossils, i only put the question in this forum because i know HF is used for fossil prep, so I was hoping some people here would have some experience and some insight into the material that would be actually useful). i'm hoping for those small gleaming kernels of wisdom that will help better protect me while using the stuff is the unforseen DOES happy.

ok?

[bobthemoose]

I used it in my stained glass work a few years ago. Even with gloves & respirator I had a numbness in my hands for several days. Went back to sandblasting slower but safer.

i *am* from jersey actually

did you ever get any directly on the skin, or was that from hf that permiated through your gloves?

[Bill]

I don't remember ever hearing that HF is used for cleaning fossils, (though possibly), HCl yes.

I do not think discussing the use of HF, other than to point out the dangers, is a very good idea on an open forum.

[bobthemoose]

I don't remember ever hearing that HF is used for cleaning fossils, (though possibly), HCl yes.

I do not think discussing the use of HF, other than to point out the dangers, is a very good idea on an open forum.

it is used for fossil prep, as others have mentioned it is used to attack sillicates.

there was a pretty horrible accident that happened not too long ago in australia where a guy had a home based fossil prep lab. he spilled about 100ml of HF onto his skin (a can of soda is typically 355 ml in comparison) and immediately ripped his clothes off and ran through the house to jump into the pool to wash the acid off, while he was waiting for EMS to show up. he still died from his injury.

i dont see how it's not a good idea to talk about the material in an open forum. the fact that the material is extreemly hazardous is common knowledge. any further discussion can only serve to help people stay safe when using it.

[pleecan]

HF has no business with average individual. STAY AWAY.... HF burn the size of a quarter can KILL YOU as it is calcium seeking. Going back a decade many year back while in the nuclear industry.... I used to work with the stuff by the rail car full... enough to wipe out a town.... . It is a very very dangerous substance.... just stay away. There are other safer means of cleaning fossils.

PL

[Bill]

Only if the discussion deters people from using it. It attacks calcium as well as silica, I can't, offhand, think of a reason for using it to clean fossils. If the fossil is in a silicate, ie, chert/flind, the fossil itself would be destroyed too, I would have thought.

The way it is used, ie, hints and tips, could result in the,'I'll be alright', types, using it.

This forum has changed recently because of school kids, etc, using it.

Swearwords for example, are not allowed, why should discussions about potentially lethal chemicals be ok????

Edited March 29, 2010 by Bill

[bobthemoose]

Only if the discussion deters people from using it. It attacks calcium as well as silica, I can't, offhand, think of a reason for using it to clean fossils. If the fossil is in a silicate, ie, chert/flind, the fossil itself would be destroyed too, I would have thought.

The way it is used, ie, hints and tips, could result in the,'I'll be alright', types, using it.

This forum has changed recently because of school kids, etc, using it.

Swearwords for example, are not allowed, why should discussions about potentially lethal chemicals be ok????

off the top of my head it's used to clean carboniferous fossils. you learn something new every day. see... all the more reason to talk about the stuff here!

but to address the safety issue:

if highschool kids can *get* lethal chemicals that most chem supply houses are nervous to sell even when you can prove you are a legitimate business with proper capacity to use the stuff, they are going to use the stuff no matter if you have tips and tricks posted here or not. if they ARE going to use the stuff we might as well arm them with whatever tips or tricks we can that will help keep them safe.

I'm sorry but i have to strongly take issue with your argument. it's akin to not teaching kids about safe gender because if you do they will all start having gender - but if you dont not a single child will EVER consider the idea of gender. that logic doesnt work when it comes to health ed, and it doesnt work here either.

edit: errr. replace gender with a word that rhymes with t. rex.

Edited March 29, 2010 by bobthemoose

[Phoenixflood]

I can see the importance to discuss such a topic because of the extreme dangers. I did not have any idea that this chemical could be used in fossil prep; I did not even know of its existence until now.

Bill, I can understand your concerns about discussing such a topic. We don't want anyone who is not equiped to handle this chemical or to be anywhere near the stuff. From what I have read, we all can figure out it is incredibly dangerous to use and should be avoided. I can see your cause for concern to the open public.

However, Bob is trying to see if anyone else here has had a bad experience with the stuff and the warning signs of exposure. I would want to know about the dangers of such a chemical. I am never going near that stuff.

[Bill]

Quote, However, Bob is trying to see if anyone else here has had a bad experience with the stuff and the warning signs of exposure.

My bold. That is one of the problems with the stuff, there can be no warning signs, until it is too late.

[Phoenixflood]

Quote, However, Bob is trying to see if anyone else here has had a bad experience with the stuff and the warning signs of exposure.

My bold. That is one of the problems with the stuff, there can be no warning signs, until it is too late.

Another reason why I plan on staying away from it.