MarcoSr Posted June 10, 2013 Share Posted June 10, 2013 I just finished searching a batch of matrix from Fannin Co., Texas from the Cretaceous, Campanian, Taylor Group, Ozan Formation. This matrix was extremely rich with excellent condition specimens. I found so many nice and interesting shark, ray, and fish micros that I’m posting some of the nicer and more unusual micros in three separate posts 1) Shark Micros 2) Ray Micros and 3) Fish Micros. All of these specimens came from less than two gallons of raw, unprocessed matrix. Most of the specimens were in the 1mm to 5mm size range. If you place your cursor on a JPEG image you will see the file name which will have the specimen id as best that I can determine and the specimen size. Any help with specimen id is really appreciated. I have an idea of the id of pretty much everything posted (maybe between several genus on some) but in some cases I wasn’t sure enough to post more than shark tooth or sawfish oral tooth as the id. There are three specimens I’ve labeled as unknown. I don’t believe two of them are really fish. One I believe is mosasaur or crocodile but it is pretty small. Each matrix that I search makes me more of an avid micro tooth collector. If anyone has or can collect good matrix with shark, ray, and fish micros please send me a PM. I am especially interested in obtaining Eocene, middle Lutetian matrix from the Miretrain quarry, Landes, southwestern France and Cretaceous, Albian matrix from Texas. I am waiting for multiple packages, currently in the mail, containing Jurassic matrix from the UK and Cretaceous matrix from two sites in the US, so hopefully I can make future posts on additional micro faunas. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Sweet haul! What are the teeth in the second and third picture on the top? "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 those tiny fish spines look similar to dercetid fish spines ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted June 16, 2013 Author Share Posted June 16, 2013 Sweet haul! What are the teeth in the second and third picture on the top? I don't know a lot about fish, but I believe that they are fish spines instead of fish teeth. I think that Steve is correct that they are from a fish like a porcupinefish. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted June 16, 2013 Author Share Posted June 16, 2013 those tiny fish spines look similar to dercetid fish spines Steve The spines don't look like the fish fin spines that I normally find. These are the first that I have found of this type. From what I can find on the web they could be defensive spines of a fish like a porcupinefish like you suggest. We need a real fish expert to chime in. Have you found any of these in NJ? Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 Steve ...they could be defensive spines of a fish like a porcupinefish like you suggest... I think that's exactly what they are. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted June 16, 2013 Share Posted June 16, 2013 (edited) Marco, I have found spines like this, but a bit larger in the late Campanian of NJ. There are 2 dercetid fish in the fauna, the giant Stratodus apicalis (mostly known from the Kansas chalk) and another smaller dercetid which is likely responsible for my small spines. My spines are a little more similar in shape to Agassiz' below pictured specimens of Dercetis elongatus. Dercetids are narrow eel-like fish. Agassiz 1843 v2. p2. pl.66 -steve Edited June 16, 2013 by non-remanié ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Marco, I also think your 5mm Protosphyraena might be a Pachyrhizodus crown instead. I find similar ones here as well. ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted June 17, 2013 Author Share Posted June 17, 2013 Marco, I also think your 5mm Protosphyraena might be a Pachyrhizodus crown instead. I find similar ones here as well. Steve, I agree. I had found five teeth that I thought were all Protosphyreana. But when I look at them all closer, the one that you point out is definitely different from the other four (not as flat and different shape). I wish there were better publications on fish teeth. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted June 17, 2013 Author Share Posted June 17, 2013 (edited) Marco, I have found spines like this, but a bit larger in the late Campanian of NJ. There are 2 dercetid fish in the fauna, the giant Stratodus apicalis (mostly known from the Kansas chalk) and another smaller dercetid which is likely responsible for my small spines. My spines are a little more similar in shape to Agassiz' below pictured specimens of Dercetis elongatus. Dercetids are narrow eel-like fish. Agassiz 1843 v2. p2. pl.66 -steve Steve, I had my families confused. I was thinking that the spines look more like Diodontidae (porcupinefish) but they go back only to the Eocene. However the Order Tetraodontiformes does have three other families in the Cretaceous. Edited June 17, 2013 by MarcoSr "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
non-remanié Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Those pufferfish scales would be a highly derived feature that should show in the fossil record if they are related, eg Eocene-recent. Have you seen similar pufferfish spines pictured as fossil anywhere? Or anything in the order Tetraodontiformes? Fishy bits are tough, I definitely agree. More work should be done on fishy lag elements, but some guilt by association conclusions always must be inferred in such research and thats probably why it hasn't been. ---Wie Wasser schleift den Stein, wir steigen und fallen--- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikecable Posted June 17, 2013 Share Posted June 17, 2013 Your photos are superb as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 (edited) Those pufferfish scales would be a highly derived feature that should show in the fossil record if they are related, eg Eocene-recent. Have you seen similar pufferfish spines pictured as fossil anywhere? Or anything in the order Tetraodontiformes? Fishy bits are tough, I definitely agree. More work should be done on fishy lag elements, but some guilt by association conclusions always must be inferred in such research and thats probably why it hasn't been. Steve I look through a lot of matrix from all over the US, Europe, North Africa and Australia and the scales (according to Earl) that I posted seem pretty uncommon to me. I haven't seen them before. As far as the fossil record I haven't seen pufferfish spines or any spines from the order of Tetraodontiformes written up. However, I am not associated with a University or Museum and don't have free access to the publications that they would be in. I'm stuck looking at free PDFs on-line and at peoples' websites. I would buy some really good books on fish teeth/verts/scales/spines etc. but haven't found any of them either. Maybe someone on the Forum can point to some good fossil references for Tetraodontiformes especially ones like Diodontidae (porcupinefish). From what I could find on-line there are at least 3 Cretaceous species of Tetraodontiformes. Marco Sr. Edited June 18, 2013 by MarcoSr "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Astron found what was IDed as a porcupine fish (albeit Miocene) with associated spines: LINK "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barefootgirl Posted June 18, 2013 Share Posted June 18, 2013 Those are fantastic! Make want to bring some of the Sulphur sand home and look a bit closer at it now. In formal logic, a contradiction is the signal of defeat: but in the evolution of real knowledge, it marks the first step in progress toward victory. Alfred North Whithead 'Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia!' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 Astron found what was IDed as a porcupine fish (albeit Miocene) with associated spines: LINK Thank you for the link. The spines in the photos do look different from the specimens that I found. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcoSr Posted June 18, 2013 Author Share Posted June 18, 2013 Those are fantastic! Make want to bring some of the Sulphur sand home and look a bit closer at it now. There are a lot of nice micros that come from the North Sulphur River either from fine river gravel or from the formations themselves. It may be a bit of trial and error but it would probably be worthwhile to take some sand home. Marco Sr. "Any day that you can fossil hunt is a great day." My family fossil website Some Of My Shark, Ray, Fish And Other Micros My Extant Shark Jaw Collection Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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