A Gorgeous Day On The River

[Shellseeker]

I went to a new location doing some prospecting. Very isolated with sunshine cool water and bird songs. As normal on a prospecting trip, not many fossils or shark teeth, but what was lacked in quantity was recovered in quality and a few unknowns --- I love unknowns.

1st the prize. I have never found one of these before, not broken and certainly not complete:

The grove is on one side only....

2nd a very strange bone,

and 3rd a seemingly unbroken oddity.. almost looks like armadillo hair holes on one side.

I do have guesses on each but that is all they are -- guesses. Thanks for all comments. SS

[drujd]

Maybe belemnite for #1, and otolith for #3 (thanks to Coco's info for that, although as usual I'm probably way off base...)

Daniel

Edited February 21, 2014 by drujd

[sixgill pete]

#1 may be a shark spine. Just a guess on my part, but looks like one to me. Not sure about the others, but I do not think #3 is an otolith.

[Plantguy]

Hey SS, I like unknowns as well--as it turns out most vert stuff I find/look at turns out that way!

The magic Sangria glass, guesses a peccary tusk, arthritic foot bone like mine and lastly a worn tortoise foot pad.

Dont bank a check on any of these.

Thanks for showing them...will wait for someone who knows what the heck they are talking about to learn something. Thanks for the post!

Regards, Chris

[RichW9090]

#1 is certainly a belemnite - the broken end shows the phragmocone, and the groove on one side is typical. Nice specimen.

[Plantguy]

OK, SS we dont have Mesozoic rocks in Florida on the surface so I'm not thinking your first unknown is not a belemnite unless you traveled elsewhere northward somewhere....These are in state surface finds---correct?

Regards, Chris

[dragonsfly]

I believe 2 is a Crinoid calyx in chert , middle pic is view of top. Three maybe tooth crown or fish dental plate. John

[Coco]

Hi,

For me, #1 is belemnit, but I don't think #3 is an otolith. It seems to be about 1", this size can be on several recent species, but the irregularity of its surface reminds me that it is not an otolith. On the other hand, a fossilized otolith is generally of another material than bones, he consistency of yours looks like bone.

Coco

[Al Dente]

The first item could be part of a bone pin used by Native Americans.

[Ramo]

The last picture of #1 shows what appears to me a very straight line all the way down the object. Almost like a seam on a mold. Any chance that thing is man-made. (Looks like a belemnite though)

Ramo

[Shellseeker]

OK, SS we dont have Mesozoic rocks in Florida on the surface so I'm not thinking your first unknown is not a belemnite unless you traveled elsewhere northward somewhere....These are in state surface finds---correct?

Regards, Chris

Yes, Chris these all came out of the Peace River, so Miocene at best. Apologies to Rich and others -- I shoudl have been more specific.

So I'll put up a few guesses..

#1 My initial thought was Sawfish Rostral tooth. Whatever this is, I have not seen anything similar in years of hunting the Peace River. Having looked at Rostral teeth, I think it is a bad guess, but still thinking "fish"

#2 Read this thread and then look at the 3rd photo. http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/26289-another-mammal-inner-ear-bone/

#3 It is the size and shape of a fish tilly bone, but the pattern is inconsistent.

Also found a couple of beat up 3-toed and palaeolama mirifica teeth.

[Plantguy]

Yes, Chris these all came out of the Peace River, so Miocene at best. Apologies to Rich and others -- I shoudl have been more specific.

So I'll put up a few guesses..

#1 My initial thought was Sawfish Rostral tooth. Whatever this is, I have not seen anything similar in years of hunting the Peace River. Having looked at Rostral teeth, I think it is a bad guess, but still thinking "fish"

#2 Read this thread and then look at the 3rd photo. http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/26289-another-mammal-inner-ear-bone/

#3 It is the size and shape of a fish tilly bone, but the pattern is inconsistent.

Also found a couple of beat up 3-toed and palaeolama mirifica teeth.

Hey SS, so what you are telling me is that I'm 0 for 3 again. Well I can't go anywhere but up from here on out. Darn it! Oh well I'm on a steep learning curve now that I'm chasing vertebrate stuff with not having had an anatomy class of any kind. been alot of fun so far.

You do have some puzzlers there. Hoping someone else can assist quickly.

#1 and that link you attached make sense. #3 doesnt seem to be like the other tilly's I've seen either, was almost thinking its a really big worn ray dermal scute.

Well, enough of my worthless speculation, may others way in!

Regards, Chris

[FossilDAWG]

Although #1 has a belemnitish appearance some details don't quite fit, in addition to the age discrepancy (Miocene vs Mesozoic). The rather deep grooves along the length of it are unusual for a belemnite, and are positioned oddly relative to the fissure (or crack). That fissure runs all the way to the tip, whereas in belemnites there is a short fissure only at the top where the phragmocone is located. The cross-section seems to be flattened in an orientation (relative to the grooves) different from what I'd expect for a belemnite. The tip also looks off, it's too triangular.

Despite the superficial but striking resemblance to a belemnite, I think this specimen is more likely a sawfish rostral. To me, it has as much resemblance to something like Pristus as it does to a belemnite. I've collected Eocene Pristus that are similar, but I don't know if such sawfish are also found in the Miocene. The hole for the "phragmocone" could be the space for the replacement tooth to nestle, at least some of my Pristus teeth have a similar notch.

Don

[Scylla]

#1 is a marlin spike or bill, I think.

Edit look under "rostrum"

Edited February 21, 2014 by Scylla

[RichW9090]

Didn't even think about the age. But it sure does look like a Belemnite! That would be a cool fossil to display next to a NJ Belemnite, which has that exact color.

Here are three from New Egypt, which are aragonite pseudomorphs of Belemnites - notice that the center one has the same longitudinal groove as the one in your picture.

Edited February 21, 2014 by RichW9090

[Al Dente]

. I've collected Eocene Pristus that are similar, but I don't know if such sawfish are also found in the Miocene. The hole for the "phragmocone" could be the space for the replacement tooth to nestle, at least some of my Pristus teeth have a similar notch.

Don

Tertiary sawfish don't replace their rostral teeth (Earlier one's did). Shellseeker will have to tell us if this is a hole or if it is a flat break across the surface. I was thinking it was flat and the center is a different color.

[Shellseeker]

I love a mystery!!!

Here are some more photos;

Note the line on the last photo - some of the very thin covering/enamel seems to be peeled on one side of that line.

[RichW9090]

Different perspective on the end view helps a lot - it now does not look like the phragmacone of a belemnite. So I like the fish tooth/rostral scenario........

Edited February 21, 2014 by RichW9090

[Ramo]

I think I'm leaning towards Scylla's answer. Some kind of fish rostrum.

Ramo

[Shellseeker]

I think I'm leaning towards Scylla's answer. Some kind of fish rostrum.

Ramo

This looks pretty close -- LargeTooth Sawfish.

http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Gallery/Descript/LTSawfish/LTSawfish.html

Looking for other Peace River hunters to chime in -- This is really unusual, and not likely modern since I was hunting 50 miles inland. I find thousands of shark teeth and just one of these...but then I am not sure that I would easily recognize a broken one. Definitely it gets its own riker. SS

[Al Dente]

I took a photo of some of the things mentioned for item #1. The top object is a Pristis rostral tooth, below that is a small billfish rostrum (Pliocene), and the two objects on the bottom are very large fish spines, possibly from a billfish.

I don't think it is a rostral tooth, the cross section is the wrong shape for either Pristis or Anoxypristis. They tend to be striated along the length and have growth bands on the base. I also don't think it is a billfish rostrum because the ones I'm familiar with are very rough.

[PrehistoricFlorida]

Al Dente is correct, #3 is a partial Native American bone point.

#1 is a sloth osteoderm.

[Shellseeker]

Al Dente is correct, #3 is a partial Native American bone point.

#1 is a sloth osteoderm.

Thanks for the Identifications -- both you and Al Dente on the bone point. Could not see the forest for the trees.

Chris, now you see the gap between a little knowledge and true expertise. My guesses were 1) Sawfish Rostral tooth; 2) Petrous portion of the temporal bone of an unidentified mammal and 3) a fish tilly bone. Thank the gods that we have real experts on this forum.

I think I will return to that location. SS

[RichW9090]

I don't see anything in any of the pictures that looks like an aboriginal bone point. Could someone repost just that one picture? There are several different sets of pictures in this thread, can't tell what #3 means.

Thanks!

[digit]

I do love a good mystery. I initially was thinking something along the lines of a rostral tooth or something else fishy like that. The only thing I can authoritatively say about that fossil is that I've never found anything remotely like it. Sometimes these pieces remain a mystery and sometimes someone on the forum with a wealth of experience in just that sort of thing steps-up and unmasks the mystery in a definitive way. Mystery pieces are some of my favorites.

Cheers.

-Ken