Fossil Claw Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 (edited) I received this tooth in trade and want to identify the right species. 1.5 inches long. It was found in a creek in Venice, Sarasota county Florida. Thank you Edited January 8, 2016 by Fossil Claw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted January 8, 2016 Share Posted January 8, 2016 Most mammal teeth require a left, right, and occlusal view for identification. 1 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossil Claw Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 Most mammal teeth require a left, right, and occlusal view for identification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossil Claw Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 More pics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossil Claw Posted January 30, 2016 Author Share Posted January 30, 2016 anyone able to ID? thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guguita2104 Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 Nice tooth ! I would label it as Equus sp. (but I'm not an expert) Regards, Guguita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old bones Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 I know that the details on the occlusal view of horse teeth is important in identifying them, so I brightened your photo to aid in ID. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted January 30, 2016 Share Posted January 30, 2016 (edited) The most obvious characteristic used when identifying what are called "three toed horses" are the enamel ridges on the top surface. A round feature of the upper molars called an "isolated protocone" is usually present with the late Miocene and Pliocene horses. Note: attached example Your tooth has plenty of wear so it's tough distinguishing the exact patterns. Size doesn't necessarily mean a lot because during the Pliocene and early and mid Pleistocene eras horses varied a lot in size from small pony to full modern horse size. Edited January 30, 2016 by jpevahouse 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) Here is the good news - you have a 3toed horse upper molar. They are HARD to find because they go back 2-5 mya versus Equus which is far more recent. Here is the bad news There were LOTS of them, and identification is not all that easy... Here is a thread where I identified mine find:http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/60493-sloths-and-3toed/ If you are interested enough , go read this. Bruce McFadden's Systematics and phylogeny of Hipparion, Neohipparion, Nannippus, and Cormohipparion (Mammalia, Equidae) from the Miocene and Pliocene of the New World. Bulletin of the AMNH; v. 179, article 1 You are likely need a much clearer photo to send to http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/vertpaleo/amateur-collector/fossil-id and have it successfully identified. That is what I did for : You should measure in mm the length width and breadth. width and breadth at the chewing surface. This tooth is Upper tooth 48.67x15.34x11.25 mm. Length is 1.92 inches Edited January 31, 2016 by Shellseeker 2 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruitbat Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Identifying horses by isolated teeth is 'iffy' at best...even if you consult an 'expert'. I can't tell from your pictures if your tooth has an isolated protocone or not. If it does, then it is NOT Equus. If it doesn't, then it is likely one of the hipparionines (Miocene of Pliocene). -Joe Illigitimati non carborundum Fruitbat's PDF Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossil Claw Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 Identifying horses by isolated teeth is 'iffy' at best...even if you consult an 'expert'. I can't tell from your pictures if your tooth has an isolated protocone or not. If it does, then it is NOT Equus. If it doesn't, then it is likely one of the hipparionines (Miocene of Pliocene). -Joe Might as well be speaking greek to me! no idea what a protcone is! Here is the good news - you have a 3toed horse upper molar. They are HARD to find because they go back 2-5 mya versus Equus which is far more recent. Here is the bad news There were LOTS of them, and identification is not all that easy... Here is a thread where I identified mine find: http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/60493-sloths-and-3toed/ If you are interested enough , go read this. Bruce McFadden's Systematics and phylogeny of Hipparion, Neohipparion, Nannippus, and Cormohipparion (Mammalia, Equidae) from the Miocene and Pliocene of the New World. Bulletin of the AMNH; v. 179, article 1 You are likely need a much clearer photo to send to http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/vertpaleo/amateur-collector/fossil-id and have it successfully identified. That is what I did for :RSCN2081.jpg You should measure in mm the length width and breadth. width and breadth at the chewing surface. This tooth is Upper tooth 48.67x15.34x11.25 mm. Length is 1.92 inches Thanks for the tips. I will check out these references. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fruitbat Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Sorry...a protocone is one of the features of many types of animal teeth. In Hipparion-type horses, the protocone is often isolated (separated) from the other main sections of the tooth's occlusal (chewing) surface. In Equus, the protocone is attached to the other main parts of the tooth. -Joe 1 Illigitimati non carborundum Fruitbat's PDF Library Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) Just for the record, This little circular ridge at center bottom of the tooth is called a protocone, and the fact that it is not connected to any of the ridges near it, means that it is isolated. So Isolated Protocone, a positive identification of a group of 3toed horses. Nice Addition and explanation, Joe Edited January 31, 2016 by Shellseeker 1 The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossil Claw Posted January 31, 2016 Author Share Posted January 31, 2016 Here is the good news - you have a 3toed horse upper molar. They are HARD to find because they go back 2-5 mya versus Equus which is far more recent. Here is the bad news There were LOTS of them, and identification is not all that easy... Here is a thread where I identified mine find:http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/60493-sloths-and-3toed/ If you are interested enough , go read this. Bruce McFadden's Systematics and phylogeny of Hipparion, Neohipparion, Nannippus, and Cormohipparion (Mammalia, Equidae) from the Miocene and Pliocene of the New World. Bulletin of the AMNH; v. 179, article 1 You are likely need a much clearer photo to send to http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/vertpaleo/amateur-collector/fossil-id and have it successfully identified. That is what I did for :RSCN2081.jpg You should measure in mm the length width and breadth. width and breadth at the chewing surface. This tooth is Upper tooth 48.67x15.34x11.25 mm. Length is 1.92 inches I l [ked at the references and u am still not sure. Here is a better picture.The portion of the chewing surface with the protocone seem a little worn and it's hard to see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpevahouse Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 (edited) The isolated protocone seen on the upper molars of early horses is contrary to the protoloph found on the upper molars of later equus species horses. The difference is the protoloph is not isolated but connected to the other ridges. The isolated photocone does not always appear on the molars of early horses. The horse has a very long and complex ancestry with many, many branches. The hipparion horses have the isolated protocone. Identification can be general at best and difficult to determine to exact species. I'll leave that to scientists with much more training and experience than myself. I've always hesitated to use the term "three toed horse" for the late Miocene and Pliocene horses because they walked on a single large toe. By that time the two small side toes were atrophied and unused. There were few true three toed horses that used all three toes. They lived mainly in the Oligocene and early Miocene eras. Example of an equus upper molar. Edited January 31, 2016 by jpevahouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shellseeker Posted January 31, 2016 Share Posted January 31, 2016 Fossil Claw, It might be Equus as jpevahouse indicates, or it could be cormohipparion, or Calippus or ?? What are the measurements (length & width) of the chewing surface? Here is a Thread on Callippus:http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/topic/46940-three-toed/. Here is a drawing from McFadden on Cormohipparrion: Compare your tooth to row C 4th or 5th down the line. Exact measurements would really help and you will need them to send it in for Identification. Shellseeker The White Queen ".... in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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