Confusing fish

[thelivingdead531]

I tried to walk away and let this go, but it’s really bugging me. This fish is confusing the heck out of me. I came across it on the ever popular auction site. The seller states that it is a juvenile Fundulus goreti from the Oligocene in France. The thing that bugs me the most is I can’t find ANY information on that species (apart from one mention in a 1940’s paper)! I’m starting to wonder if it even exists. Also, and I could be completely wrong, I can’t find any information on any Fundulus species in France. 

 

Am I not looking hard enough, or the correct way? Am I crazy?  Most importantly, can anyone shed some light on what it may actually be?

[fifbrindacier]

Can you tell me the name of the seller ? If i know that person i'll be able to tell you if it is a serious person.

[thelivingdead531]

2 minutes ago, fifbrindacier said:

Can you tell me the name of the seller ? If i know that person i'll be able to tell you if it is a serious person.

I’ll PM you.

[fifbrindacier]

I've found that article of 2012, it says that Prolebias goreti is closely related to Fundulus gardneri and Fundulus guentheri :

https://www.senckenberg.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/04_vertebrate_zoology_62-3_costa_371-386.pdf

[Fossildude19]

This looks more like a juvenile Dapalis macrurus, if it is from France, to me. 

Still an excellent fish. 

[thelivingdead531]

12 minutes ago, fifbrindacier said:

I've found that article of 2012, it says that Prolebias goreti is closely related to Fundulus gardneri and Fundulus guentheri :

https://www.senckenberg.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/04_vertebrate_zoology_62-3_costa_371-386.pdf

Thank you! That helped clear up the name issue! Very informative read.

 

8 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

This looks more like a juvenile Dapalis macrurus, if it is from France, to me. 

Still an excellent fish. 

After reading the above text, I looked up Prolebias goreti and it’s definitely not that. Prolebias goreti’s dorsal and anal fins are directly above and below each other, this fish’s fins are not. I looked up Dapalis macrurus and see the similarities between them. The only thing is the dorsal fin towards the back doesn’t seem to be there. Could it be that because it’s a juvenile it’s tiny, or could it be compressed towards the spine?

[fifbrindacier]

Here are the Dapalis macrurus i have, they're all from South of France :

[thelivingdead531]

Those are beautiful fish @fifbrindacier! Do you think the one I posted is Dapalis macrurus as well?

[fifbrindacier]

Well, i'm not expert, so, i don't know. It looks like this though. I think fossildude is on the right track.

[Fossildude19]

21 hours ago, thelivingdead531 said:

Those are beautiful fish @fifbrindacier! Do you think the one I posted is Dapalis macrurus as well?

I think so - I think I see part of a second dorsal fin:   

 

[thelivingdead531]

30 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

I think so - I think I see part of a second dorsal fin:   

 

I wasn’t sure if I was seeing just one set or if the second set was a little flattened, it’s good to have a second set of eyes on it. A big thank you to both of you for helping me solve this mystery! It was driving me crazy that I couldn’t find any information on it!

 

I decided to go ahead and buy it. Even though it’s a little guy and maybe not the best preserved, it was a great price compared to the other Dapalis macrurus I looked at. Plus, I can’t pass up a tiny fish. 

[fifbrindacier]

Happy to help.

Enjoy it.

[FossilDAWG]

5 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

This looks more like a juvenile Dapalis macrurus, if it is from France, to me. 

Still an excellent fish. 

I agree.

 

Don

[herve]

Hello,Your fish is a Prolebia Goretti oligocéne Stampien stage, locality Alpes de Haute Provence .Best regards Hervé

[caterpillar]

+1 for Prolebias

[Pixpaleosky]

19 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

I think so - I think I see part of a second dorsal fin:   

 

 

Hi Tim, you are fully right, it is a juvenile Dapalis macrurus.

The fins are an unquestionable proof.

1/ Prolebias as its dorsal fin exactly on the same vertical than its anal fin

2/ it has a single dorsal soft fin, whereas Dapalis as a double spiny dorsal fin.

[Pemphix]

19 hours ago, thelivingdead531 said:

 Even though it’s a little guy and maybe not the best preserved,

It's a nice one, i like it.

You can see a lot of details and with a little bit more prep around...it's a keeper !

[thelivingdead531]

Sorry @herve and @caterpillar, but I have to disagree. The dorsal and anal fins don’t match Probelias. After Tim’s suggestion of Dapalis macrurus I did some comparative research of the two and it definitely looks to be Dapalis. I still appreciate your help though! 

 

5 hours ago, Pixpaleosky said:

 

Hi Tim, you are fully right, it is a juvenile Dapalis macrurus.

The fins are an unquestionable proof.

1/ Prolebias as its dorsal fin exactly on the same vertical than its anal fin

2/ it has a single dorsal soft fin, whereas Dapalis as a double spiny dorsal fin.

That was the conclusion I came to also, after getting a big nudge in the right direction. Thank you for your reply! 

[thelivingdead531]

2 minutes ago, Pemphix said:

It's a nice one, i like it.

You can see a lot of details and with a little bit more prep around...it's a keeper !

Thank you! I’m going to try to get better photos once it arrives. I’m not sure I trust myself to prep any more of it though, I have little to no experience. 

[Fossildude19]

I had a bit of difficulty finding images of Prolebias, (I was on my phone earlier) but the ones I did find look nothing like the fossil in question.   

[Pemphix]

6 minutes ago, thelivingdead531 said:

Thank you! I’m going to try to get better photos once it arrives. I’m not sure I trust myself to prep any more of it though, I have little to no experience. 

Fishy-prep is tricky...you would need a bit experience.

If you don't have, leave it like it is.

I have some fish in nodules, which i do not prep until i have the experience - or the money for an expert to do the prep...

[thelivingdead531]

4 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

I had a rather hard time finding images of Prolebias, but the ones I did find look nothing like the fossil in question.   

I found a few, at least one right here on the forum, and you are right that they don’t resemble the one I posted. 

 

5 minutes ago, Pemphix said:

Fishy-prep is tricky...you would need a bit experience.

If you don't have, leave it like it is.

I have some fish in nodules, which i do not prep until i have the experience - or the money for an expert to do the prep...

I’m definitely not going to touch it, it would be too risky for me. Maybe one of these days I’ll try my hand at real prep work. 

[Fossildude19]

Found a good example: 

 

[Pixpaleosky]

4 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

I had a bit of difficulty finding images of Prolebias, (I was on my phone earlier) but the ones I did find look nothing like the fossil in question.   

I can suggest my website

 

http://webfossiles.free.fr/poissons_fichiers/france.htm

[thelivingdead531]

5 hours ago, Pixpaleosky said:

I can suggest my website

 

http://webfossiles.free.fr/poissons_fichiers/france.htm

I really like your website! Especially the fish section.