Three teeth from Venice fl . Horse?

[Jbenton]

Found these three on a beach in Venice Florida. They are small so not sure if they are horse, three toed or another mammal. Any ideas? Thanks 

[Harry Pristis]

These are fragments of horse teeth, probably Equus.

[Shellseeker]

On 7/3/2022 at 12:22 PM, Jbenton said:

Any ideas?

These 3 are (or were) horse teeth.  The more you understand how to present fossils for Identification,  the easier it is to identify them.

The last tooth is badly broken.  measurements are mostly useless.  The most we can tell is that it was a lower jaw tooth because of the circles.

 

The 2nd tooth is more clearly a lower jaw horse tooth.  It is not complete, broken on the right side. Usually, you should photograph lower horse teeth like this. It is the way it is done in reference papers. Photos of the sides of the tooth have minimal value.

 

The 1st tooth I find more interesting and most complete.  It is an upper jaw tooth. I have also positioned it the way Horse Upper Jaw Teeth are positioned in reference papers. 

I need a measurement to proceed.  I do not need a coin or ruler.  I need you to tell me the length in words. This tooth is xx millemeters from left to right.

[fossillarry]

I have a group of teeth from Venice Beach that match at least  two of the specimens in the photos. The first tooth in the photos that were provided by Shellseeker could be a lower tooth but I"m not sure.The other two are a lower and upper tooth respectfully.  I took some of my Venice Beach teeth to the Florida State Museum and showed them to Dr Hulbert.  He Identified some of the teeth as belonging to Pseudhipparion new small species. This species is from the Late Barstovian. The teeth that jbenton found are, I believe, Pseudhipparion sp and may be from the Tamiami Formation. An upper premolar measures 12.8mm long by 13.5mm wide by 37.0mm tall, an upper molar is 12mm long by 12.5mm wide by 25.6 tall, a lower premolar is 14.5mm long by 8.4mm wide by 26.6mm tall (broken base) and a lower molar is 14.6mm by7.8mmwide by 23.4mm tall (broken base). The above teeth were chosen at random from about 20 teeth and all the specimen were already in ware. I add the measurements to give an idea of the size of this small hipparion horse. I would add pictures of some of  my teeth but I can't  upload photos to the Fossil Forum website at this time.

[Shellseeker]

@Jbenton The Barstovian North American Stage on the geologic timescale is the North American faunal stage according to the North American Land Mammal Ages chronology (NALMA), typically set from 16,300,000 to 13,600,000 years BP, a period of It is usually considered to overlap the Langhian and Serravallian stages of the Middle Miocene.

 

You are especially lucky for 3 reasons!!!!

1) You found a middle Miocene horse tooth.

2) It has never been named or identified previously by the scientific community.

3) You have the very good fortune to attract a couple of experts in fossillarry and Richard Hulbert

Please, please provide measurements on your finds....   Jack

[Jbenton]

@Shellseeker which one do you need dimensions for? Are you saying this a rare middle Miocene tooth? 

[Shellseeker]

4 hours ago, Jbenton said:

@Shellseeker which one do you need dimensions for? Are you saying this a rare middle Miocene tooth? 

Every middle Miocene horse tooth is rare. In addition, this one has not been named by Florida Scientists ... yet. That alone makes it rarer than named Horse teeth.

@fossillarry is one of our best experts on small horse teeth.  He knows lots more than I do...

1) He said his teeth found on a Venice Beach,  match yours AND he gave measurements for his teeth.

 

On 7/11/2022 at 9:31 PM, fossillarry said:

An upper premolar measures 12.8mm long by 13.5mm wide by 37.0mm tall,

 

On 7/11/2022 at 9:31 PM, fossillarry said:

lower molar is 14.6mm long by 7.8mmwide by 23.4mm tall

So, Measure all 3,  in the same long/wide/tall format used by Larry. Compare your measurements with his..

Your 1st and 2nd photos are lower molars,  the last one is an upper molar.

 

[fossillarry]

These upper teeth are Pseudhlpparipn small unnamed species from the Late Barstovian of Venice Beach. The left tooth is a premolar 3/4. The right tooth is molar 1/2.

[fossillarry]

These teeth are also Pseudhlpparipn unnamed new small sp. On the left is a premolar 3/4 and on the right a molar 1/2. They are from the same locality as the above upper teeth.

[jpc]

pseudohipparion?

[fossillarry]

This small  first phalanx  of the third metaphorical from Venice  Beach may also belong to the all Pseudhlpparipn, it is 36 mm long.

[fossillarry]

Pseudhipparion

[Meganeura]

On 12/12/2022 at 6:32 PM, fossillarry said:

Pseudhipparion

Larry - what kind of putty do you use to keep the teeth standing? I’m sure there’s various kinds, but I’d rather not risk one that leaves damage or residue.

[DPS Ammonite]

2 hours ago, Meganeura said:

Larry - what kind of putty do you use to keep the teeth standing? I’m sure there’s various kinds, but I’d rather not risk one that leaves damage or residue.

Look for Geo Tac which is used for holding minerals of many different types.

[Family Fun]

All kinds of great learning in this post, thank you everyone for all the contributions you make to this amazing forum.

 

Rick

[fossillarry]

I use Polyform Model Air, it is an air dry modeling clay. I also use it to restore missing parts of fossil bones. I buy it from art stores.