Per Christian Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 (edited) I just received this tooth in the mail. It was sold as eocarcharia but the carinae on the front makes me wonder if it really is eocarcharia. What do people here make of it? It's 6.5 cm long. It's quite worn so i can't see any serrations on the backside, but the carinae is visible. Also, is the tip broken from erosion or feeding wear? It's from the elrazh formation, Gadoufaoua, Tenere desert, Niger @Troodon Edited October 14, 2022 by Per Christian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 What's your concern with the mesial carina ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Per Christian Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 1 minute ago, Troodon said: What's your concern with the mesial carina ? It stops quite high up on the crown. Reminds me more of megalosaurid teeth. Not that I'm saying it's megalosaurid, but made me wonder. Of what's left of the mesial side of the tooth, the carinae extends just short of 2 cm, leaving 3 cm of no carinae along the front/mesial side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 It's difficult to see on the photos and with the state of preservation. This tooth includes quite a bit of root ( white line.) Does the red line indicate the extent of the carina? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Per Christian Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 The red line on this picture indicate where the mesial carinae ends. It's quite high up, about 2 cm from where the root seems to begin. I wasn't aware it was partially rooted, that's neat. Makes sense now that i look at it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 Wow thats high and not typical of lateral Carcharodontosaurid teeth. I have no idea about this tooth. I will say what I have said many times with Niger Jurassic teeth, very little is known about identification of its teeth, little is published and Ive had a major concern about the accuracy of the provenance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Per Christian Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 9 minutes ago, Troodon said: Wow thats high and not typical of lateral Carcharodontosaurid teeth. I have no idea about this tooth. I will say what I have said many times with Niger Jurassic teeth, very little is known about identification of its teeth, little is published and Ive had a major concern about the accuracy of the provenance. Thanks! Yeah it was really strange. Hope more data and research keep coming out regarding the dinosaurs of Niger. Is it possible that the tooth is Jurassic and it's location has gotten mixed up along the way of what i imagine is a few middle men between the person excavating it and the seller i bought it from? I can imagine it could Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 1 minute ago, Per Christian said: Is it possible that the tooth is Jurassic and it's location has gotten mixed up along the way of what i imagine is a few middle men between the person excavating it and the seller i bought it from? I can imagine it could Not only that but think about the diggers. Are they experts in identifying deposits that are close to one another?? Even if collected and sold accurately we know so little about the fossil content in the Echkar Fm that its difficult to say much about teeth that don't match what is published. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Per Christian Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 23 minutes ago, Troodon said: Not only that but think about the diggers. Are they experts in identifying deposits that are close to one another?? Even if collected and sold accurately we know so little about the fossil content in the Echkar Fm that its difficult to say much about teeth that don't match what is published. Yeah I've wondered about that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino Dad 81 Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 I've had the same experience with the couple of alleged Eocarcharia teeth I've gotten. Mesial carina doesn't extend to the bottom--hard to know if it really ends or is worn away--and I'm left wondering if it's an Afrovenator tooth that got mixed up. You can see this in tooth 3 and 4 in the link below. I was happy to remain hopeful that tooth 5 was in fact Eocarcharia, but I just got by first Kryptops tooth and the similarities make me wonder (despite tooth 5 not having a perfectly straight distal edge). Maybe I'll post the comparison. Seems like Eocarcharia may be much tougher to find than sellers make it look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Per Christian Posted October 14, 2022 Author Share Posted October 14, 2022 32 minutes ago, Dino Dad 81 said: I've had the same experience with the couple of alleged Eocarcharia teeth I've gotten. Mesial carina doesn't extend to the bottom--hard to know if it really ends or is worn away--and I'm left wondering if it's an Afrovenator tooth that got mixed up. You can see this in tooth 3 and 4 in the link below. I was happy to remain hopeful that tooth 5 was in fact Eocarcharia, but I just got by first Kryptops tooth and the similarities make me wonder (despite tooth 5 not having a perfectly straight distal edge). Maybe I'll post the comparison. Seems like Eocarcharia may be much tougher to find than sellers make it look. Really interesting! It seems your tooth nr 3 is similar to mine. They seem awfully robust to be afrovenator? The preservation color seems elrhaz but i doubt one can judge by color alone? The mesial carinae definitely ends where i marked, there's no wear in that area on the tooth. What other groups besides megalosaurids have that kind of mesial carinae @Troodon? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 14, 2022 Share Posted October 14, 2022 You cannot identify a tooth just based on a short mesial carina, you need a good provenance. We only have very very limited knowledge of what is found in that deposit maybe a couple of teeth have been published. It is what it is, indeterminate at this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Per Christian Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 10 hours ago, Troodon said: You cannot identify a tooth just based on a short mesial carina, you need a good provenance. We only have very very limited knowledge of what is found in that deposit maybe a couple of teeth have been published. It is what it is, indeterminate at this time. Gotcha, thank you @Troodon, your help is invaluable, really appreciate it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troodon Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 On 10/14/2022 at 2:28 AM, Per Christian said: Also, is the tip broken from erosion or feeding wear? Very very difficult to make that call. My guess and would lean more towards it occured post mortem. I say that because it's not a shed tooth and it's state of preservation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino Dad 81 Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 @Per Christian You may want to get the very best pics your can of the tip under varying light to show how smooth/not-smooth the break is. I had the same hunch as Troodon based on the look of the break--and, regardless, he knows best--but perhaps if your pics can reveal that the break has been thoroughly smoothed over (i.e., shiny smooth--nothing jagged or raw looking), it could present new information to help make the call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Per Christian Posted October 15, 2022 Author Share Posted October 15, 2022 1 hour ago, Dino Dad 81 said: @Per Christian You may want to get the very best pics your can of the tip under varying light to show how smooth/not-smooth the break is. I had the same hunch as Troodon based on the look of the break--and, regardless, he knows best--but perhaps if your pics can reveal that the break has been thoroughly smoothed over (i.e., shiny smooth--nothing jagged or raw looking), it could present new information to help make the call. Yeah that makes sense, i got some new pictures here, hope they help! Hope I'm not spamming you guys here. The break is pretty smoothed @Troodon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dino Dad 81 Posted October 15, 2022 Share Posted October 15, 2022 I’ll be curious to see if it helps. The shape of the crack isn’t streamlined like you tend to see in teeth that have spent a long time in the mouth following a break. So I guess the bottom line is, can such uniform smoothing of the surface (even if not the overall tooth) make a case for antemortem usage. Can that smoothing happen postmortem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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