What to avoid at the Denver Show

[agills]

Hello everyone, I've been trying to gather a list of fossils for a wishlist for the upcoming September show in Denver. I've been looking in the fake/real section in the forum and it's seemed to sway my confidence for picking out real vs fake fossils in person. Is there any fossils or regions where fakes are common, or that I should avoid purchasing? Thank you for any help! 

[Fin Lover]

I read on here about the Otodus obliquus from Morocco being broken and then lengthened with matrix and, sure enough, at the first show I went to, all of them had been altered.  As a newbie, I never would have known, if not for TFF.  Why don't you say what fossils are on your wish list so people can comment on what to look for specifically?

[agills]

@Fin Lover Thank you for your response 

 

It’s just a small list so far, but:

 

1. Keichousaurus

2. Diplomystus

3. Some type of leg bone (I.e Hardrosaur Humerous / Ulna) 

[Kane]

You might not go wrong bringing a handheld black light and to ask questions about any restorations and repairs. 

[FossilNerd]

Pretty much any highly desirable fossil will have a fake or two out there. Some are entirely fake casts from resin. Others may be an amalgamation of multiple specimens glued together to make one. It all depends on what you are looking for. 

 

@Fin Lover had a great suggestion of providing a wishlist.

Given the items in said wishlist, I would specifically watch for paint. 
 

There are a lot of Keichousaurus out there with missing bones painted on. There are also a lot of badly prepped ones, and entirely fake ones, but in my experience those are (usually) more recognizable than ones with paint. Unless it’s a really bad paint job.  

 

Fish are also prone to having fins painted on or the entire body gone over to “enhance” it, or more likely hide  missing bone. I don’t think Diplos are as prone to this as others (knightia for example), but it’s something to be cautious of. 

 

 @Kane suggestion of taking a black light and asking about restoration is sound advance.

On a personal level… These days I don’t buy anything without researching the subject to death. That goes for basically any big purchase in my life, but doubly for fossils. Like most of us, I was burned a time or two in the beginning of my fossil journey.

 

As always, feel free to post things here on TFF if you are unsure. Many of us are not shy about giving our opinions.   

[Troodon]

The Issue with any dinosaur material is two fold, accuracy of ID #1 and then what repair/restoration has been done.   A good UV light, like it has already been mentioned will help in seeing what been done.  Accuracy is on you and trusting what you're told can be very problematic and too often wrong..  North American material is rarely faked like that from Morocco

[agills]

2 hours ago, Kane said:

You might not go wrong bringing a handheld black light and to ask questions about any restorations and repairs. 

Would that be considered rude? I guess to a reputable dealer it wouldn’t but I haven’t been to a show before 

[agills]

2 hours ago, FossilNerd said:

Pretty much any highly desirable fossil will have a fake or two out there. Some are entirely fake casts from resin. Others may be an amalgamation of multiple specimens glued together to make one. It all depends on what you are looking for. 

 

@Fin Lover had a great suggestion of providing a wishlist.

Given the items in said wishlist, I would specifically watch for paint. 
 

There are a lot of Keichousaurus out there with missing bones painted on. There are also a lot of badly prepped ones, and entirely fake ones, but in my experience those are (usually) more recognizable than ones with paint. Unless it’s a really bad paint job.  

 

Fish are also prone to having fins painted on or the entire body gone over to “enhance” it, or more likely hide  missing bone. I don’t think Diplos are as prone to this as others (knightia for example), but it’s something to be cautious of. 

 

 @Kane suggestion of taking a black light and asking about restoration is sound advance.

On a personal level… These days I don’t buy anything without researching the subject to death. That goes for basically any big purchase in my life, but doubly for fossils. Like most of us, I was burned a time or two in the beginning of my fossil journey.

 

As always, feel free to post things here on TFF if you are unsure. Many of us are not shy about giving our opinions.   

Thank you for your response! I’ll probably skip the Kiechosaurus, as I don’t know enough and don’t want to get burned, I probably stick to the Dilpo or the bigger bone if I find a good dealer. 

[Kane]

11 minutes ago, agills said:

Would that be considered rude? I guess to a reputable dealer it wouldn’t but I haven’t been to a show before 

I wouldn’t think so, and a good dealer who stands behind his or her item as being genuine has nothing to fear if you inspect the item with added scrutiny.

[agills]

22 minutes ago, Kane said:

I wouldn’t think so, and a good dealer who stands behind his or her item as being genuine has nothing to fear if you inspect the item with added scrutiny.

I’ll have to do that, is there a post that explains what to look for on here? 

[Brett Breakin' Rocks]

16 hours ago, agills said:

I’ll have to do that, is there a post that explains what to look for on here? 

Hi There,

 

Personally I didn't start buying Moroccan fossils until I researched a good bit of what is and what is not a genuine looking fossil specimen. Or rather, given fossil species X, what is a good example of a high quality prep, preservation, details etc.

 

As mentioned before you are doing the right thig by trolling these two sub-forums:

 

Is it Real ?

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/forum/190-is-it-real-how-to-recognize-fossil-fabrications/

 

Fossil Id

http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?/forum/14-fossil-id/

 

 

Sometimes you can find guides that explain what to look for when examining fakes and fabrications. Specifically, this guide discusses trilobites:
fossilmuseum.net/collect/faketrilobites3.htm

 

My best advice though is to have a short shopping list. Put a couple fossils you have been interested in, and become a detective, a student, and a researcher of those fossils. Learn more about the locations where they are typically found. Are there any authoratative articles/papers concerning their origin, descriptions with images ? It can be an involved process, but the work and investment of time pays off in this pursuit. And you get smarter !

Just know that the more fantastical and "amazing" the fossil is (Spinosaur vert/ croc skull/mososaur jaw/turtle skull etc) , the harder it will be to find one of those fossils (cheaply) that has not been altered or fabricated in some way. Because, the market sees them as being valuable, so they try to skim some of that interest. (In the form of your dollars) So you end up often owning someone's art piece. Better to start small, so that when you make a mistake, it's not such a loss and it becomes a conversation piece. 

Personally I stick with what I can afford, and at the Denver show in particular, I look for the dealer "UGLY" boxes. Stuff that they have purchased in bulk that is bits and bobs. Nothing really cleaned or prepped. The dealers usually don't know what is in the boxes, and they can't shape it into anything recognizable so they barter. Again, that would be for someone that knows what they are looking at, and for that, we swing back to educating youself about what fauna existed at the time. But start with just one critter at a time. At least, that is one strategy. 

Good Luck. 

Cheers,
Brett

 

PS. Here is an example of one of those purchases. I cleaned it up a bit, the "teeth" were covered by a decent layer of sand and grit. Didn't pay an arm and a leg, but I got a fossil rostrum section, (the nose) of a fossil Sawfish Onchopristis sp. with a few broken rostral barbs (teeth) still attached where they drifted to their final location. Some of the breakage happened during the original excavation, sure. It's not pretty and you can't sell these in bulk. I suspect most of these kinds of fossils are discarded as worthless and difficult to move (I would if I was looking for maximum profit and needed the cargo space for easier to sell items). 

For me this is an amazing opportunity !  It's in context, it tells a story of how these parts were a piece of a larger animal. Part of that animal that we don't normally see remains preserved. He's here, telling an amazing story of a vibrant marine environment. Now I can tell that story. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Brett Breakin' Rocks

[Troodon]

9 hours ago, agills said:

Would that be considered rude? I guess to a reputable dealer it wouldn’t but I haven’t been to a show before 

 

Absolutely not.  A lot of dealers don't do the resto themselves and just flip product, so they may not be aware of what they have.   If they have an issue with a UV light move on.

[doushantuo]

UV luminescence brings out details in fossils that wouldn't otherwise be very apparent....

and might add to or detract from the veracity of the sellers claims.

The surrounding sediment(which would contain e.g. phyllosilicates) might show details under fluorescence as well,which MIGHT assist in retrieving(or even disproving) provenance  

edit plus comment: those typo's will get me killed sometime

Edited March 26, 2023 by doushantuo

[Troodon]

We all mention UV lights however they have their limitations.  Moroccan's typically use matrix and glue to patch, repair and add material which typically does not fluoresce even with the best UV light.  Some paints will not.  It still takes a good eye and a loupe to try to figure out what's going on.