DPS Ammonite Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Musket ball? You may be on to something John. I found an article that said that they used to coat round rocks with lead to make musket balls. The person said that they have made musket balls with marbles in the center. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120912023704AA6kAXa 2 My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 (edited) After perusing the interwebs, I am liking John's musket ball theory (and DPS's marble center) theory a lot. As I said, I see tons of bullets at one of my sites, and the shape and color match very well. The knife cuts look like lead (not iron) and the OP says it's unusually heavy. The bullets I see are all modern, but the damage is similar to this item. Most of the rounds have the classic mushroom shape. But maybe this musket ball (?) glanced off a target or even passed through a human or game animal and was damaged. I have a hard time explaining the clean way it was trimmed up. Perhaps the round bullet mold left a seam? Maybe, in order to incorporate the round rock, they had to mold it in two steps. Otherwise the rock wouldn't stay in the center of the molten lead. So, when it hit the target, it split on the seam leaving the center ball exposed. That also explains the gap around the ball if the bottom half of the lead were molded to accommodate a certain size round rock or marble. Edited July 28, 2016 by CraigHyatt Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayre615 Posted July 28, 2016 Author Share Posted July 28, 2016 I checked and it is not magnetic! I was originally thinking of a musketball, but wanted to keep an open mind until it was seen by more experienced eyes. This would be quite exciting as I have never found a stray ball before, let alone on my property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Ammonite Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 (edited) Can the outer metallic coating be easily bent and creased with a knife? Does the coating have a white coating anywhere? Does the knife scratch the inner sphere? Edited July 28, 2016 by DPS Ammonite My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayre615 Posted July 28, 2016 Author Share Posted July 28, 2016 The outer coating does not appear to have any white coating and does easily cut and bend with a knife. And yes the inner sphere can be scratched with a knife as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allenz Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Possible old rifle round ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 (edited) I agree with musket ball with rock center. I looked all over but could not find documentation on how these were made. The maker could not have put a core in a bullet mold and poured in molten lead. The core would be off center. My guess is the bottom half was made first as a hollow hemisphere in a separate bullet press. Then a round stone was placed in the bottom half. Then the hemisphere + stone was placed in a conventional mold and molten lead poured. The two halves would effectively be soldered together. Then the finished bullet was trimmed. All the above is supposition. Any antique ammo experts? Edit: The above may explain why the lead casing split in half so neatly. Edited July 28, 2016 by CraigHyatt Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sagacious Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I suspect that some of you guys are spot-on with this one -- it may be a projectile. This item may be a 'low-recoil' shotgun slug or 'ball'. The outer covering is definitely pure lead, which is easily cut with any pocketknife, and pure lead is commonly used for shotgun projectiles to prevent damage to choked barrels, among other reasons. There are several large scuffs on the lead, indicating that if the item is a shotgun slug, it was fired. That explains the outer layer, so then what about the core? I pour a lot of rifle and handgun lead bullets. CraigHyatt is correct; although it might seem pretty simple, casting a compound projectile like this one would be far less easy than it might seem. If it's a projectile, it's almost certainly a commercially made one, and one which is much more likely to have been swaged than cast around the core. The spherical core is probably a very hard/rigid plastic compound, which explains why the core can be scratched with a pocketknife. In a commercial reduced-recoil shotgun slug load, the lightweight core reduces the weight of the projectile, and thus reduces the recoil transferred to the shooter. There's a huge market for reduced-recoil shotgun slug ammo. My understanding is that NY allows shotguns to be used for deer hunting. Measure the diameter of the item. A 12ga shotgun slug would measure slightly under 0.729" or so, or just a little smaller than 3/4 inch. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I think sagacious nailed it. Nothing like having an expert around. :-) 1 Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Ammonite Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Good work guys. At The Fossil Forum we put our synergy to good use identifying fossils and non fossils alike. Give us some good photos and some basic facts and we will do the rest. The Fossil Forum at your service. 3 My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Good work guys. At The Fossil Forum we put our synergy to good use identifying fossils and non fossils alike. Give us some good photos and some basic facts and we will do the rest. The Fossil Forum at your service. It is a fabulous phenomenon!!! It often Me!! And it is wonderful to learn so many things! Tony Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyrice11 Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 (edited) Actually I know exactly what this might be!!! I have a good feeling that it is actually a fossil! From how perfectly round that is I believe it might be the head of a sphaerexochus Trilobite. I know this sounds crazy, but I have found quite a few of them this summer and they are almost identical to the color of what you have there and they are very very round like that. I suggest carefully trying to chisel off some of the rock around it to reveal more of it! I've attached a couple pictures of ones that I've found. The one in the first was barely sticking out of a rock when I first found it, much like what you found. Only after I pryed it out did I realize what it was! Good luck! EDIT: Only the two things on the right in the third pic are Sphaerexochus, They are the round things that stick out. Edited July 28, 2016 by andyrice11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyrice11 Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 @ynot I discovered it a few miles east of the Minnewaska state park reserve in New York! And I only used a simple pocket knife to test the hardness when I saw that it was appearing metallic Googled the park and saw that it has very nice exposures of the Shawangunk Formation which another google search revealed is lower Silurian in age. I find my sphaerexochus heads in Silurian rock so what you found might be from the Shawangunk Formation or another Silurian one nearby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 It's a Truball Rifled slug- 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaier Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 It's a Truball Rifled slug- truball1.jpg truball2.jpg OK! Now for giving it a scientific name! Errr... what phylum do we file this under? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 OK! Now for giving it a scientific name! Errr... what phylum do we file this under? Phylum off the serial number? 1 Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 OK! Now for giving it a scientific name! Errr... what phylum do we file this under? How about ammoshotgunslugium? Tony 3 Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 How about ammoshotgunslugium? Tony Good point! Next time somebody says "I found an ammo" we'll ask "upper cretaceous or tactical ballistic?" ;-) 2 Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fossildude19 Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 It's a Truball Rifled slug- truball1.jpg truball2.jpg And Al Dente clinches it! Here is the pic brightened and enlarged a bit: Looks like a match to me. Regards, 2 Tim - VETERAN SHALE SPLITTER VFOTM --- APRIL - 2015 __________________________________________________ "In every walk with nature one receives far more than he seeks." John Muir ~ ~ ~ ~ ><))))( *> About Me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 It's a Truball Rifled slug- truball1.jpg truball2.jpg I still want to know what this is. It's maybe 75 or 80 mm. Could be WWI or WWII. This area was Fort Duncan back in the day. I gave the piece to a local history museum. Never found a match online and still curious to know the ID. Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ynot Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 I still want to know what this is. It's maybe 75 or 80 mm. Could be WWI or WWII. This area was Fort Duncan back in the day. I gave the piece to a local history museum. Never found a match online and still curious to know the ID. image.jpeg Looks like a civil war era "canister" for canon. 1 Darwin said: " Man sprang from monkeys." Will Rogers said: " Some of them didn't spring far enough." My Fossil collection - My Mineral collection My favorite thread on TFF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmaier Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Watch out for live rounds, Craig. Do you know if there are any warnings for the area that you are poking around in? The area I'm in was heavily bombed by the Navy in WWII, but most of the bombs were dummies. There is a school south of here that they found the playground was littered with live WWII ordinance, and they closed it down when kids kept digging in the sand boxes and finding warheads. Not all areas are well marked, and some are forgotten. This is a bigger problem in Europe, with left over live "dud" rounds buried all over. It does occur here in the states in areas that the military used for practice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 And Al Dente clinches it! Here is the pic brightened and enlarged a bit: post-2301-0-82979600-1469712951.jpg Looks like a match to me. Regards, I get the exact same ^impression^. Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CraigHyatt Posted July 28, 2016 Share Posted July 28, 2016 Watch out for live rounds, Craig. Do you know if there are any warnings for the area that you are poking around in? The area I'm in was heavily bombed by the Navy in WWII, but most of the bombs were dummies. There is a school south of here that they found the playground was littered with live WWII ordinance, and they closed it down when kids kept digging in the sand boxes and finding warheads. Not all areas are well marked, and some are forgotten. This is a bigger problem in Europe, with left over live "dud" rounds buried all over. It does occur here in the states in areas that the military used for practice. That's the only one I've ever seen. Actually, I left it where it was initially because I wasn't sure if it might be live. I showed a photo to the museum guy and he said it was safe. You are right though. Munitions are dangerous and best left alone. Info: Craig Hyatt, retired software/electrical engineer Experience: Beginner, fossil hunting less than a year Location: Eagle Pass, TX USA on the border with Mexico, hot dry desert Formation: Escondido, Marine, Upper Cretaceous Materials: Sandstone, Mudstone, Shale, Chert, Chalk Typical: Thalassinoides, Sphenodiscus, Exogyra, Inoceramus Reference: http://txfossils.com/Txfossils.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sayre615 Posted July 28, 2016 Author Share Posted July 28, 2016 That looks a lot like it! Question is... How long have they been manufactured? Because for the past 20+ years there hasn't been a single shot fired on my property as far as I know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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