Ichthyosaurus from Guizhou

[Crazyhen]

Please take a look of the very well preserved ichthyosaurus from Guizhou, China.  The fossil is about 1.5m long.  Any idea what species is that? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GeschWhat]

Not my area of expertise, but it looks more like a carving than a fossil. 

No enamel on teeth?

[izak_]

I can't see the pics

[Fossildude19]

Odd, .... this looks kind of carved, to me.  

[Crazyhen]

12 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

Odd, .... this looks kind of carved, to me.  

As far as I know, this is a genuine specimen, though it might look like it's carved. 

[Tidgy's Dad]

I agree with carved. 

The teeth definitely look carved to me, and once you can see that, the rest of it also becomes suspect. 

[caldigger]

What's with the Hockey puck behind the rear flipper?

Looks rather carved to me as well. No dental details is hanging me up.

[Sagebrush Steve]

I have to agree with the assessment that it is carved, perhaps from a cast of an original specimen?  The depth of the gaps between the ribs looks too unnatural to me.

[Fossildude19]

If you compare this to an ichthyosaur fossil online, it really seems to have too many ribs, and the singular vertebra seems odd. 

Also, not sure what the mess is on the ventral side of the body?

 

 

 

[Sagebrush Steve]

2 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

If you compare this to an ichthyosaur fossil online, it really seems to have too many ribs, and the singular vertebra seems odd. 

Also, not sure what the mess is on the ventral side of the body?

 

 

 

Yes, I was wondering about that, too.  Some of the ribs blend seamlessly into it, which is very strange.

[Troodon]

Some parts look odd and possibly fabricated like the skull but this is the type of specimen that needs to be examined in detail and in person to properly evaluate its authenticity. Detailed closeup photos of the jaw could help. 

 

Those bottom sets of bones on the bottom are probably gastralia which are found in the ventral cavity of some animals. They do not articulate with the vertebrae but are found loose.  

 

Dinosaurs and birds have them

[Crazyhen]

I further checked with the owner of the specimen, he confirmed that it is genuine, with no fabrication.  The ichthyosaurus from the source place are all look similar to this, with the bones like rocks and very 3-D.  Some parts might not be properly prepped though.

[steelhead9]

11 hours ago, Troodon said:

Some parts look odd and possibly fabricated like the skull but this is the type of specimen that needs to be examined in detail and in person to properly evaluate its authenticity. Detailed closeup photos of the jaw could help. 

 

Those bottom sets of bones on the bottom are probably gastralia which are found in the ventral cavity of some animals. They do not articulate with the vertebrae but are found loose.  

 

Dinosaurs and birds have them

 

Troodon is exactly correct about the jumbled up small bones. All the Chinese ichthyosaurs I have seen have them. I actually think this fossil is real though the teeth may be carved. Much better prep than is normal on these specimens. 

[Crazyhen]

Steelhead, you are right.  For the teeth, I was told that it's not prepped well, and thus it might have been "carved" to shape like teeth instead of properly prepped to show the real teeth.

[westcoast]

The difficulty I have with this specimen is that the bones and enclosing sediment look very similar. As well as the teeth and the gastralia being fused to ribs the caudal vertebra dont look right. On the plus side at least they havent been painted on. I would like to see images of it (and all heavily prepped fossils) at various stages of prep to reassure me...It should be standard for all sellers..

[doushantuo]

Westcoast,that's a good suggestion.

What with modern affordable and portable recording technology and all that ,perhaps more excavations and prepping could/should be digitally recorded .

Then again,video and imagery and digital files can be manipulated,but less so in real time

 

[Aurelius]

I'm confident that it's real. Ichthyosaurs from this locality often look much worse than this.

[Fossildude19]

The gastralia on the specimen in question are all short, and go all the way back to the back paddle.   

On the other specimens, they are longer, thinner, and fewer, ...  and only go as far back as the middle of the body.  

The depth of the bones seems odd, as well. (As mentioned by 

35 minutes ago, Aurelius said:

I'm confident that it's real. Ichthyosaurs from this locality often look much worse than this.

I'd be interested to see any photos of other Ichthyosaurs from the same locality.  

 

 

I wouldn't rule out that parts of it may be real, but overall, I think there was a lot of carving done to this item. 

Regards,

[Fossildude19]

8 hours ago, Crazyhen said:

I further checked with the owner of the specimen, he confirmed that it is genuine, with no fabrication.  The ichthyosaurus from the source place are all look similar to this, with the bones like rocks and very 3-D.  Some parts might not be properly prepped though.

Most sellers will confirm that their items for sale are genuine.  

[Crazyhen]

9 hours ago, Fossildude19 said:

Most sellers will confirm that their items for sale are genuine.  

Yes, I agreed.  But this seller is a friend of mine and is quite trustworthy.  I thought it's fabricated at first too, but then he showed me other specimens and they all look similar.

 

[Sagebrush Steve]

I’d be interested in knowing how it was prepped.  It reminds me of how we used to etch metal parts.  Starting with a flat sheet of metal we would apply an etch resist on the regions of the metal we wanted to protect and leave the rest unprotected.  When the piece was immersed in an etchant, the etchant would dissolve the unprotected areas and leave the protected areas looking like raised pillars.  I wonder if they did something similar here.  Start with a real fossil, paint some sort of etch resist over the bones, then use an etchant to dissolve away the matrix.  This could explain why the bones look like tall pillars and would also explain what looks like undercutting where material has been removed underneath the bones.  And it would explain why the teeth look the way they do.  Just paint etch resist over that area and after etching it would look flat.  In areas where there aren’t any bones, paint the etch resist where you would like them to be and voila, you have bones (that have the same color as the matrix because that is what they are.) Anyone know if this is a common way to prepare fossils?

[-Andy-]

I am leaning towards it being real, but there are parts that looks restored or carved. It looks like a Mixosaurus to me.

[Mike from North Queensland]

The front half of the skull looks to be fabricated and in the first photograph there is a clear join line in the background matrix.

I would assume that section was not recovered or too damaged to work with and would class it as restoration work.

The rest of the skeleton looks to be real. Lets be realistic here, a 90 % complete specimen is a very good find.

 

Mike D'Arcy

[JohnBrewer]

In my opinion most of this is carved. Would need to see much more detailed and close up images to determine what’s genuine.  

[JohnBrewer]

On 22/12/2017 at 12:38 AM, Crazyhen said:

Yes, I agreed.  But this seller is a friend of mine and is quite trustworthy.  I thought it's fabricated at first too, but then he showed me other specimens and they all look similar.

 

Can we see similar specimens?