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GeneralAnesthetic

Beaverhead Impact and the Haggerman Horse (part 1)

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GeneralAnesthetic

About 3 years ago I was walking along the dunes by the river, across from Farewell Bend State park on the Idaho side. I noticed that there was what looked to be an abnormal amount of crystallized and glassy material, conglomerates, basalt and lots of sand. The sand can be explained by the presence of mud volcanos and hydrothermal vents that can be seen in satellite photos. My premature analysis and imagination were wild with fantasy. The samples I was collecting were like nothing I've ever seen. I knew something was up, but there were and are, still more questions to answer. Idaho Falls sits at ~4700ft above sea level. Farewell Bend is ~2300ft. Making the Treasure Valley of Idaho a 340mi basin that becomes a bottleneck at Farewell Bend, which would explain the accumulation and abnormal variety of material. I have always been good to pay attention to the composition of the soil and rock in my environment. Usually the material is pretty consistent, but I've seen nothing like the variety that is here. Traveling upriver deposits of glacial stone are evident in the bends of the river, indicating ice jams that built up on the tips of islands. The stones are always upriver of the islands. About 30mi to the Northwest is a very large cement plant run by the largest cement manufacturer in the nation, Ash Grove. I'm still working on understanding the erosion and possibility of run-off and river flows changing the route in which the Treasure Valley drains. 

 

5b535a428ddc3_farewellbend.JPG.57697232079660042ba88bf0e6bdcaa5.JPG

 

The Idaho State Fossil is the Hagerman Horse, which is from an abnormal collection. "Ultimately five nearly complete skeletons, more than 100 skulls, and forty-eight lower jaws as well as numerous isolated bones were found." (wikipedia) There are a few theories as to how the bones made it there is such large numbers. One theory being that they were swept up in a flash flood, ~3.5mya. My own personal theory is if the horses could have been herded by the Native peoples and eaten. The more I look into it though, I see that it is more likely that this is not an isolated event. The deposits in the Hagerman beds may have been, but the odd numbers of bones vs. complete skeletons points at dismembered animals in my opinion. Just as this flash flood 3.5mya could have wiped out the Hagerman Horse, so too could have the human population that would have been very likely to have populated the Treasure Valley region in much larger numbers than we currently understand. 

 

133302-004-9694F5F9.jpg.4692c25b01a171feaafedb03117d874a.jpg

 

Further passed Farewell Bend the Snake River winds into Hells Canyon. The Hells Canyon is the deepest gorge on the North American Continent. Which, to me, says a couple of things. #1 Must be the oldest, Orrrrr #2 Must have had the most aggressive run off which carved it deeper than the Grand Canyon. These are questions will be investigated further as my collection of maps and topographics grows. I am working on understanding what allowed the formation of valleys and plains through the Treasure/Magic Valley ranges, and the lower elevations from the Blue Mountains north to the Cascade range which also has the not so mountainous regions that, by the tectonics in the area, should not exist like they do. Ancient inland seas are what I am looking at currently. Satellite photographs seem to suggest there was a drainage that went to the south and I believe that there were more salts in the waters in these Idaho waters. Which looks to have drained towards Salt Lake. This easily could have been via aquifer, or by displacement from meteoric impact. There has been some problem with correlation because "~" timelines are a bit loose when it comes to lining up events. For instance, the flood that apparently killed the horses in the Hagerman beds was ~3.5mya. Geologists seem to like this ~3my marker for some reason. Same with this is the 12,000 - 15,000ya mentions, some reports mention that the abrupt end to the last Ice Age was ~12-15,000ya. Which, only really gives me direction to look into whether or not, and how the end of this ice age caused the flooding and debris to completely chew up the fossil record and make it incredible hard to identify locations and patterns in events. The "quaternary" deposits at Farewell Bend do and do not make sense. So, while the standard may be to look at a USGS map of deposits to determine what minerals and fossils might be where, it becomes  

a problem in Idaho because by the elevation drop and the likely age of the Snake River, literally every single time period "should" be represented in the deposits that have accumulated at Farewell Bend. Though, they might just fit somehow in the corresponding periods of deposits, but will need to be given a new description for how the periods are represented in these constantly modified deposits. 

IdahoGeology.thumb.jpg.d70f48848864563281cc09a7fc7567eb.jpg

 

Suevite chucks, 

suevite1.JPG.2160ad39c1ec55dcd4d9357e50eba5a5.JPG

suevite3.JPG.14471f1e37cd2510e682ffae11a70da1.JPG

suevite2.JPG.8f336959c278a0e0911293c7dcd98e86.JPG

Still working on getting the equipment to make slices. Recommendations

 

USGSTime.thumb.jpg.8c1d75cdf680592a661d86bc418bc66f.jpg

 

I need to head back to the site to take photos of the large suevite boulders that are very clearly ejecta from an impact. Where the top of the boulder is exposed and shattered from weathering. The boulders have a mix of glass, crystal, concretions and stones showing shock induced spallation. The "eggs" previously hypothesized are likely to be shock induced spallation, still wondering how that may occur in an egg though. If an egg were to be fossilized prior to the shock, what would the effects be? 

 

Picture showing glass on concretion from suevite boulder. The glass inclusion shattered when chipping it free from the suevite. glass.JPG.5093fe506f9d161aaf52cc2cf4121684.JPG 

 

Part two of this post will be more photos that show the variety of samples collected. It is taking me quite a while to set all of this up. I plan for this to be a regularly updated post. Please, if anyone has any feedback or wisdom, please by all means, I'm here for correction in this critical analysis. One of my favorite things in learning is to be wrong, because that means my autistic thought process has investigated why it's not right, even if I don't know it yet. 

 

Suggestions, regarding missing considerations or needed analysis, please school me. I find it difficult to manage my tangents at times.

 

Cited: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagerman_horse (web, 2018)

         https://www.britannica.com/place/Hagerman-Fossil-Beds-National-Monument (web, 2018)

 

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GeneralAnesthetic

So, while the most significant impact in Idaho geology is the Beaverhead impact, it is not the only one, or the closest. Parma Canyon ID, is a much closer impact which was discovered in 1940. With, wait for it, yet again, no visible crater. This is a bit disconcerting when it comes to research. 

5b53919a9562a_parmacayon.JPG.5a091bd416f46de608902c5d6d6595c6.JPG

5b5391b81f979_idahometeorite.JPG.50890ecf262d58e6922d0b29901fa3ee.JPG

 

Seems unlikely that an impact carrying the weight of the known Idaho impacts do not coincide with the size of the suevite boulders, or the way they rest in the ground. Some even looking to have partly shattered on impact, leaving stones that the center is intact with radiating fractures that leave the boulders looking sorta like a "bloomin onion from outback steakhouse."

 

There are particles of iron in the concretions, which I do not understand as of yet. Was it a conglomeration formed by mud, basalt with iron or something else? The magnetism is minimal, but still enough for a magnet to attach. Is this meteor debris that was pulverized and embedded in the ejecta? 

 

With impact events causing material to be deposited globally, I guess with some pieces speculation is best. Or better yet, fitting perfectly into the category of "superficial deposits." 

 

https://www.lpi.usra.edu/meteor/metbull.php?code=18107

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WhodamanHD
2 hours ago, GeneralAnesthetic said:

My own personal theory is if the horses could have been herded by the Native peoples

Humans evolved roughly 315,000 years ago with earliest human habitation of North America being at oldest roughly 15,000 ago. Much too young to have killed the horses.

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Kane
2 minutes ago, WhodamanHD said:

Humans evolved roughly 315,000 years ago with earliest human habitation of North America being at oldest roughly 15,000 ago. Much to young to have killed the horses.

I was puzzled by that, too, unless he meant that a subsequent event may have caused some kind of mass herding/killing. The Hagerman Horse is said to have lived until 10,000 ya, which is pretty much at the most conservative estimate for human habitation in the area. 

 

At least that is what I'm hoping the OP meant!

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WhodamanHD
1 hour ago, GeneralAnesthetic said:

The "quaternary" deposits at Farewell Bend do and do not make sense.

I figured this problem out a while ago, though geologic maps don’t always make it clear, it typically means whatever bedrock is there was worn (usually via river action) into what it is now during the Quaternary. For example, sometimes I walk along a river which the geologic map claims is Holocene, but it has Pre-Cambrian Schist. It’s because the river has added clay and other sediment, presumably in the Holocene. The inclusions might be a lot older than what the map says. Also, I wouldn’t take a maps word. They are often made by a few people who have only taken a look at a few sights and have drawn the rest to their fancy. In Maryland, I tryed to hunt in a late paleocene site (according to the map) but was actually mid-Cretaceous in age. 

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WhodamanHD
1 minute ago, Kane said:

I was puzzled by that, too, unless he meant that a subsequent event may have caused some kind of mass herding/killing. The Hagerman Horse is said to have lived until 10,000 ya, which is pretty much at the most conservative estimate for human habitation in the area. 

 

At least that is what I'm hoping the OP meant!

The actual Hagerman Horse quarry is around 3 MYA I believe, so that assemblage wouldn’t have been made by them. Also, there would probably be other signs (worked bone, cut marks, arrowheads, pottery, etc.)

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Kane
3 minutes ago, WhodamanHD said:

The actual Hagerman Horse quarry is around 3 MYA I believe, so that assemblage wouldn’t have been made by them. Also, there would probably be other signs (worked bone, cut marks, arrowheads, pottery, etc.)

Definitely agree. If humans were herding them 10,000 ya at or near that location, there would likely be remains found, and they would show cut marks, etc. I think the OP may want to leave out the early human question out of the hypothesis as it seems to be a non-starter.

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WhodamanHD
1 hour ago, GeneralAnesthetic said:

Beaverhead impact,

This one is estimated at 600 MYA by the way.

 

1 hour ago, GeneralAnesthetic said:

There are particles of iron in the concretions, which I do not understand as of yet.

Iron compounds are common in sedimentary rocks, it drops out of groundwater. If it is magnetic, it’s probably magnetite.

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GeneralAnesthetic
2 hours ago, Kane said:

I was puzzled by that, too, unless he meant that a subsequent event may have caused some kind of mass herding/killing. The Hagerman Horse is said to have lived until 10,000 ya, which is pretty much at the most conservative estimate for human habitation in the area. 

 

At least that is what I'm hoping the OP meant!

It is. I use Kennewick man as my model for early man. I used to live across the road from where he was found. After my divorce I lived on my boat, a couple hundred feet from where he was discovered. While I lived there I saw a man scraping a stick against the dirt, I watched as an arrowhead caught the stick and flung skyward. This is when I realized it was an ancient Native spearfishing site. He was found to have a spear wound in his hip. Which says to me Batemans Island is still the same today, "take my fishing spot and I'll cut you homey." The flow of the river in that spot could have easily carried a body to the other side from where the arrowhead was found. Then I read this......from Smithsonianmag.com

Screenshot_2018-07-21-17-38-19.thumb.png.e068987bf58e1e1fa05cf6fd13fc0f5a.png

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GeneralAnesthetic
2 hours ago, Kane said:

Definitely agree. If humans were herding them 10,000 ya at or near that location, there would likely be remains found, and they would show cut marks, etc. I think the OP may want to leave out the early human question out of the hypothesis as it seems to be a non-starter.

Excellent point on the cut marks. 

 

I also agree with this, the thought was triggered by the accumulation of skulls in particular. Maybe I'll head over to visit the beds on my next trip east.  

 

I'll never leave early man out of the equation, if I am correct there should be human artifacts and remains at this bottleneck as well. The problem is that the was it was tilled from multiple events, anything recognizable as human, was likely chewed up beyond recognition. I have one piece I have been questioning the origin of. Looks to be napped, is solid glass, with a coating on it like it's exterior was melted a second time. When shining a light through it, it looks like it has a design drawn onto it. Very strange. I'll get off my butt and take photos shortly. Phone photos are too large. 

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GeneralAnesthetic
3 hours ago, WhodamanHD said:

I figured this problem out a while ago, though geologic maps don’t always make it clear, it typically means whatever bedrock is there was worn (usually via river action) into what it is now during the Quaternary. For example, sometimes I walk along a river which the geologic map claims is Holocene, but it has Pre-Cambrian Schist. It’s because the river has added clay and other sediment, presumably in the Holocene. The inclusions might be a lot older than what the map says. Also, I wouldn’t take a maps word. They are often made by a few people who have only taken a look at a few sights and have drawn the rest to their fancy. In Maryland, I tryed to hunt in a late paleocene site (according to the map) but was actually mid-Cretaceous in age. 

I tend to take a lot of what a map says as generally proximate. The impact crater maps are a pretty good example for mixed info. Certain reports not on "official" pages, and more. There really should be a better term coined for mixed media like this. It's kind of it's own animal. Sure has been interesting to look into. 

 

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GeneralAnesthetic

This piece was found in the same part of the dunes as the others. (Note: Breccia is found everywhere in the area)

 

This blows me away though, if for nothing else than the strange line curling around it's surface. Appears to be a cutting tool that was tossed when the tip sheared.

It would have been an excellent tool to clean fish. 

spear.JPG.50b8bcd5d63ea54bc84ad9b93a26f23e.JPG

spear1.JPG.fe4ab5b616849f00294f2257a3b100a2.JPG

spearseethrough.JPG.638737e8cf124a54f5bbd5fb5b1c0704.JPG

seethrough2.JPG.d480e8d3323352936f9bf62f759f77ad.JPG

 

If anything I'm pretty sure I found the only fossilized goldfish cracker in existence! lol

spear3.JPG

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WhodamanHD
4 minutes ago, GeneralAnesthetic said:

f anything I'm pretty sure I found the only fossilized goldfish cracker in existence! lol

On our favorite auction site I was able to find a very convincing “missing link” gold fish snack going for a few hundred bucks! This must be it’s brother:D

Very interesting stone, can you post a picture of the broken part? It’s so opaque without the light, but translucent when it has it. I’ve seen agates that look like this but none that clear when lit. I don’t know about the worked part, simply because I don’t know much about Native American tools. 

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jpevahouse

Early human hunting as an explanation for some fossils sites is more and more poplar. Archaeologists are particularly quick to attribute hunting as the source of remains of fossil mammals. However, I find a lot of these explanations are based on questionable evidence. There are many explanations for scratches on bones which look like tool marks. Dis articulation of fossil bones is almost the rule. There are numerous good explanations as to why fossil bones would be scattered.

I think the Clovis people did it explanation is over used.

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GeneralAnesthetic
1 hour ago, WhodamanHD said:

On our favorite auction site I was able to find a very convincing “missing link” gold fish snack going for a few hundred bucks! This must be it’s brother:D

Very interesting stone, can you post a picture of the broken part? It’s so opaque without the light, but translucent when it has it. I’ve seen agates that look like this but none that clear when lit. I don’t know about the worked part, simply because I don’t know much about Native American tools. 

I also suspect agate, but still does not mean it's not a tool. I'm a tool, but not an agate. I suppose it can go many ways.

 

Leading edge of where the tip is sheared off. f.JPG.a06c10237a944ae635e185c84b9b56ae.JPG

 

View of raised crystal on broad side

nfjfjfjfjfjfjf.JPG.b6c5c68e5980c43f9f8ff76a6cf85b68.JPG

 

Close up view of sheared tip, I suspect the surface color is permineralization. 

 

sdgsgdsdsg.JPG.729cb029ad9faf7a07a4c610be2a39b9.JPG

 

 

 

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GeneralAnesthetic
1 hour ago, WhodamanHD said:

On our favorite auction site I was able to find a very convincing “missing link” gold fish snack going for a few hundred bucks! This must be it’s brother:D

Very interesting stone, can you post a picture of the broken part? It’s so opaque without the light, but translucent when it has it. I’ve seen agates that look like this but none that clear when lit. I don’t know about the worked part, simply because I don’t know much about Native American tools. 

Trying to get the right image of it. With the right angle and light you can see that the tip sheared quite some time ago. There are markings indicative of toiling in a sand dune. 

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GeneralAnesthetic

I thought the curving blotted line was strangly similar. 

Screenshot_2018-07-21-21-43-09.png.cdbd363d763fcac4dfaec41073db47b3.png

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GeneralAnesthetic
8 hours ago, Oxytropidoceras said:

Great comments, Kane. A good scientist should be able

to explain his or her idea on the back of a 4" x 6" index

card as a former professor chided our class when our 

group tried preparing mock grant proposals. 

 

Some publications that might be of use are:

 

Brooks, H.C. and Vallier, T.L., 1967. Progress report 

on the geology of part of the Snake River Canyon. 

Oregon and Idaho: The Ore Bin, 29(12), pp. 233-266.

https://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/concern/administrative_report_or_publications/9k41zk371

https://ir.library.oregonstate.edu/concern/parent/9k41zk371/file_sets/1v53k2400

http://www.oregongeology.org/pubs/og/OBv29n12.pdf

 

Brooks, H.C., McIntyre, J.R., Walker, G.W. and Portland, L.M., 

Geology of the Oregon part of the Baker 1 degree by 2 degree 

quadrangle. GMS—7.

http://www.oregongeology.org/pubs/gms/p-GMS.htm

http://www.oregongeology.org/pubs/gms/GMS-007.pdf

 

Gazin, C.L., 1936. A study of the fossil horse remains 

from the Upper Pliocene of Idaho. Proceedings of the 

United States National Museum.

https://repository.si.edu/handle/10088/16231?show=full

https://repository.si.edu/bitstream/handle/10088/16231/1/USNMP-83_2985_1936.pdf

 

Northrup, C.J., Schmitz, M., Kurz, G., Tumpane, K., Lee, 

J. and Evans, J.P., 2011. Tectonomagmatic evolution of 

distinct arc terranes in the Blue Mountains Province, 

Oregon and Idaho. Geologic Field Trips to the Basin and 

Range, Rocky Mountains, Snake River Plain, and Terranes 

of the US Cordillera: Geological Society of America Field 

Guide, 21, pp. 67-88.

https://scholarworks.boisestate.edu/geo_facpubs/360/

 

Richmond, D.R. and McDonald, H.G., 1998. The Hagerman 

Horse Quarry: death and deposition. National Park Service 

Paleontological Research, 3, pp. 103-104.

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.738.4476&rep=rep1&type=pdf#page=103

 

Ruez Jr, D.R., 2009. Framework for stratigraphic analysis 

of Pliocene fossiliferous deposits at Hagerman Fossil Beds 

National Monument, Idaho. Rocky Mountain Geology, 44(1), pp. 33-70.

https://pubs.geoscienceworld.org/uwyo/rmg/article-abstract/44/1/33/141040

 

Also look at

https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C19&q=Hagerman+Horse+idaho&btnG=

 

Vallier, T.A., 1973, Geologic map of the Snake River 

Canyon, Oregon & Idaho. Oregon Department of 

Geology and Mineral Industries.

https://digital.osl.state.or.us/islandora/object/osl:708

https://digital.osl.state.or.us/islandora/object/osl%3Amaps_gm?page=9&display=list

http://www.oregongeology.org/pubs/gms/GMS-006.pdf

 

Yours,

 

Paul H.

Thank you for that, a wealth of information! 

As for what you ask in regards to my point. 

USGS lists the area as "Quatenary" which does not seem apparent in the mineralization. I'm tying together various sources of information, including gravity and flow of the Snake River, to bring attention to the collection that is present to date. This is really a dissection of a mixed up timeline, a lot is here. That's why I found you folks!

 

Just this afternoon I stumbled on a rather funny find relating to my meteorite theories. This is a pretty good one! Stay tuned..........

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Kane
34 minutes ago, GeneralAnesthetic said:

Thank you for that, a wealth of information! 

As for what you ask in regards to my point. 

USGS lists the area as "Quatenary" which does not seem apparent in the mineralization. I'm tying together various sources of information, including gravity and flow of the Snake River, to bring attention to the collection that is present to date. This is really a dissection of a mixed up timeline, a lot is here. That's why I found you folks!

 

Just this afternoon I stumbled on a rather funny find relating to my meteorite theories. This is a pretty good one! Stay tuned..........

So the purpose of this research is to falsify the claim that the area is primarily Quaternary deposits? I just want to be sure this is your meaning. Is this based on surficial or bedrock geology?

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GeneralAnesthetic

So I've really been looking at this for a bit more than 3 years. Of and on I'd have a thought and wonder about the geological history of the area. I make regular drives up both I84 and I95, so regular that I've put 30k on my car since last October. 9hr drives up the Olympic Peninsula reserve a whole lot of time to think. When I am coming down the hill towards Huntington, OR. I get a pretty good view of the hills and Snake River Basin. My mind goes wild with part imagination, and the rest reality. This wonder began because of an erosion/landslide pattern that was occurring immediately before Farewell Bend. Hydrothermal activity along Hwy 55 were also triggers for me. So initially my interest was purely of tectonic form. With the idea looming around of high water in the basin and lush growth. Ya know, temperate attitude, imagining somewhere green. 

 

Ultimately I found that what I thought might be receding waterline marks, were hundreds of ash layers from the numerous area eruptions of the past. And what a more likely place to accumulate than the southernmost regions of a river basin. Land continues to migrate in the southern parts, one area has clear hydrothermal activity, ya know, the little green oasis on the side of a hill, at the top, um yeah it's related to the rocks. But how, I'm still looking into the current activity and anything else I could possibly construe as a theory. 

 

As for these fabled Hagerman horses, well.... Bottom line is that these washed up there somehow. The way things flow in that area make sense for the flood explanation. I'm good with all that. The part I missed in adding to this is that what I am looking into is the possibility that I could be looking at bone fragments chewed up, encapsulated and subsequently permineralized. I'd say that there is reasonable information to surmise the bones were chewed up and went somewhere. Likely spots are all over the Magic and Treasure Valleys. You just gotta follow the physics to find them. Or the obvious place which is the last place for the river to run so unrestricted in a plain environment, Farewell Bend. Call it a cheat if you would. I came up with some of this in part because of researching how to find the gemstones of Idaho. And let's just say that the "yuppie, where do I find jewels" maps and tourism info is garbage to me. 

 

But yet again, there is an absolute mass of information to look at. I still don't believe it's as simple as some of the dismissive basic explanations. I thought physics was pretty basic myself. 

 

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GeneralAnesthetic
37 minutes ago, Kane said:

So the purpose of this research is to falsify the claim that the area is primarily Quaternary deposits? I just want to be sure this is your meaning. Is this based on surficial or bedrock geology?

Absolutely not, I am certainly not a person to challenge anything that folks have spent actual time in looking at as a career. I have much respect for that. Honestly the intent of adding the forum to my plight is that I believe there is something to look at here. And while it may be a mess of just about everything, if it were fossils or a collection providing supporting info for the science, then I would like the 4WD traffic to stop. The drifting sand on the dunes is probably older than any human settlement, stuff uncovers overnight if the wind is right. 

 

Does quaternary mean sediment "material" of this most recent period(s)? Or sedimented "in" this most recent period?

 

I suppose it is surficial that "had" become bedrock some time ago. Water levels are not the same but I have had a hard time finding info on this, wait, lemme look!

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GeneralAnesthetic

Meteorite update:

 

So, I'm lazy, ADHD and Autistic. Half the time I have my head up........... So, I get back from the dunes we had evacuated because the wind had picked up. I had tossed several chucks of the green limestone we had been chipping away, in the back of my car for later examination. I later took out the chunks and put them under the rear wheels of my truck. It was a convenient storage technique I suppose. They have been sitting there for about 6 months. Today I picked them up to get them out of the way and I took a closer look. 

 

This limestone was impacted directly by a small meteorite. Pretty cool, still has a couple small chunks that are maybe 30% magnetic or so. There is shocked calcite on the impact surface as well. And a very interesting curved feature directly under the center of impact marking in the concretion. 

 

hfjfffjfjfj.JPG.77e1ead0db5f9aced0cf245f7e5e6d83.JPGhfjhjhjhj.JPG.1ef1e869d5a07375150e57e3cc928f38.JPG

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GeneralAnesthetic

Those pictures stink btw, js

 

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