DPS Ammonite Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 1 hour ago, Al Dente said: I’ve done a little more research on Cretoxyrhina and I’m convinced this is not one. I can’t find any evidence that they have lingual folds in the publications I’ve read. Cappetta says they do not reach the Campanian. Isn’t the Ozan Campanian? This might be Scapanorhynchus with strange root. The tooth was found in the Conacian Arcadia Park to Atco Formations where Cretoxyrhina could be found. Here is a page from Weldon's "The Collector's Guide to Fossil Sharks and Rays From the Cretaceous of Texas". My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 27 minutes ago, DPS Ammonite said: The tooth was found in the Conacian Arcadia Park to Atco Formations where Cretoxyrhina could be found. Ok. I got confused by the Ozan Formation mentioned in John S.’s signature line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Dente Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 2 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said: The tooth was found in the Conacian Arcadia Park to Atco Formations where Cretoxyrhina could be found. Here is a page from Weldon's "The Collector's Guide to Fossil Sharks and Rays From the Cretaceous of Texas". I’m glad you added the Welton and Farish. I looked at my copy and think the Cretodus crassidens matches with the same root type and the folds, just lacks the cusps which could be missing. Welton and Farish pointed out that Cretoxyrhina mantelli “crown faces are always smooth”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 This tooth looks almost identical to this Texas tooth: Taken from this website: http://northtexasfossils.com/sharks.htm I don't know if their ID is accurate, but it's a match. 1 “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNCollector Posted September 9, 2018 Share Posted September 9, 2018 15 hours ago, The Jersey Devil said: I know they have cusplets. This tooth might have not had them, but since there is no occlusal view shown, I don't know if you can really be sure if cusplets used to be there or not. I never knew Scapanorhynchus got that large, I always thought the max (at least in NJ) was a little over 2". Do you happen to have any pics of it? Joseph These two are about the same size and are the largest I have ever found/seen. Also I agree that the picture you posted is a match, but I think that the author's ID is incorrect. But I don't know enough about Leptostyrax to saw for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted September 10, 2018 Author Share Posted September 10, 2018 Thanks for all the research people it can be very confusing to ID these teeth North Central Texas Eagle Ford Group / Ozan Formation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 10 hours ago, TNCollector said: These two are about the same size and are the largest I have ever found/seen. Also I agree that the picture you posted is a match, but I think that the author's ID is incorrect. But I don't know enough about Leptostyrax to saw for sure. Nice teeth. They look like an a3 and an a2, respectively. “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 On 9/9/2018 at 2:39 AM, Al Dente said: I’ve done a little more research on Cretoxyrhina and I’m convinced this is not one. I can’t find any evidence that they have lingual folds in the publications I’ve read. Cappetta says they do not reach the Campanian. Isn’t the Ozan Campanian? This might be Scapanorhynchus with strange root. Yeah, I've been looking at this tooth over the past couple of days. I don't have one like it. The root lobes seem short for Scapanorhynchus and vertical folds are very short. It's an anterior tooth. It's not Cretoxyrhina because it is too straight and there wouldn't be any folds at all plus the root appears to have at least a shallow nutrient groove and is not the right shape. If the age is Coniacian (86-90 mya), I would have to agree that it's most likely an oddball Scapanorhynchus tooth because that's what it seems closest too and that genus shows a lot of variation. I would say that it could be a Cretodus but it seems like the crown would be broader with a root that has more of a shelf-like lingual protuberance. It would be an odd Cretodus if it lacks cusplets too. It would be great to get a labial and profile view plus the height in inches or millimeters. Jess 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 On 9/9/2018 at 8:49 AM, The Jersey Devil said: This tooth looks almost identical to this Texas tooth: Taken from this website: http://northtexasfossils.com/sharks.htm I don't know if their ID is accurate, but it's a match. Yes, it is at least similar but I think we'd like to see both these teeth from both sides plus a profile view so we can see the shape of the lingual protuberance. Both teeth should at least show the broken-off bases of rather slender cusplets too. In Leptostyrax the cusplets jut out from the root rather than align pretty much even with the main cusp. The crown height relative to the size of the root doesn't look right for Leptostryax. I would expect a shorter crown with a longer root overall though I must admit I haven't seen a lot of teeth of this genus. Leptostyrax isn't known to have survived past the Cenomanian part of the Cretaceous so a Coniacian-age specimen would be worth at least a short note in a technical journal. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gizmo Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted September 13, 2018 Author Share Posted September 13, 2018 More pics here guys North Central Texas Eagle Ford Group / Ozan Formation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 39 minutes ago, John S. said: This pic seems to show a stub of a cusplet. The ridges seem to possibly extend onto the root in the first pic which would indicate Scapanorhynchus, but I'm not completely sure they really do extend. The stoutness of the root (especially of the lingual protuberance) is probably a strange variation. “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tidgy's Dad Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Very interesting debate. Rather nice tooth. Life's Good! Tortoise Friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcordova Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 What a niece tooth!!!! Congrats Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNCollector Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 I still think that it is a Cretoxyrhina tooth, specifically an anterior tooth. See this figure from this publication https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258421523_A_high-latitude_euselachian_assemblage_from_the_early_Turonian_of_Alberta_Canada See the top left tooth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peace river rat Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Nice one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JarrodB Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 Ginsu tooth. Nice find John. I have some nice ones from that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jersey Devil Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 6 hours ago, TNCollector said: I still think that it is a Cretoxyrhina tooth, specifically an anterior tooth. See this figure from this publication https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258421523_A_high-latitude_euselachian_assemblage_from_the_early_Turonian_of_Alberta_Canada See the top left tooth. I don't know how a texas ginsu would look like, but have you possibly seen any teeth that do have the lingual crown ridges? 1 “You must take your opponent into a deep dark forest where 2+2=5, and the path leading out is only wide enough for one.” ― Mikhail Tal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSRhunter Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 I vote Cretodus crassidens, I have some in my collection with the cusplets fading like that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 On 9/9/2018 at 6:39 PM, John S. said: Thanks for all the research people it can be very confusing to ID these teeth Hi John S. Thanks for the extra photos. Can you give us one more from the apical view, looking straight down at the tip so we can see the lingual protuberance from above and get a better angle at what appears to be a weak nutritive groove? Jess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siteseer Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 7 hours ago, TNCollector said: I still think that it is a Cretoxyrhina tooth, specifically an anterior tooth. See this figure from this publication https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258421523_A_high-latitude_euselachian_assemblage_from_the_early_Turonian_of_Alberta_Canada See the top left tooth. Hi TNCollector, I would agree with you but a couple of characters keep me from thinking it's Cretoxyrhina. First, there's no dental band (=bourlette). You can say, "Well, maybe it was worn away." Okay, maybe, so let's say we can't say no to Cretoxyrhina on that point alone. Second, those little folds (=ridges) at the base of the crown on the lingual face are not found in Cretoxyrhina. That genus always has smooth crown faces. Third, the development of the heels at their ends is also not seen in that genus. It's true you can get cusplets in the lateral teeth as seen even in that plate but you don't see that in anteriors. You have to go back into the Albian (matbe early Cenomanian) to see Cretoxyrhina anteriors with cusplets. However, the little folds on the lingual face and what appears to be a few on the labial are features you can see in Cretodus teeth. The development of the heels almost forming cusplets is something you can see in Cretodus as well as noted by NSRhunter. I'm starting to lean toward Cretodus now. It's an uncommon genus so the variation within the teeth at any point in time is hard to nail down. I've seen a couple of weird teeth that appear to be Cretodus because they had a few more characters in common with that than with those of other sharks. I think if John S. can give us an apical view and there is even a weak nutrient groove visible than that would also be evidence against Cretoxyrhina (which might have a foramen but never a groove) and would support referral to Cretodus, which can lack that groove or have a poorly-developed one. Jess 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KimTexan Posted September 14, 2018 Share Posted September 14, 2018 On 9/9/2018 at 7:32 AM, Al Dente said: I’m glad you added the Welton and Farish. I looked at my copy and think the Cretodus crassidens matches with the same root type and the folds, just lacks the cusps which could be missing. Welton and Farish pointed out that Cretoxyrhina mantelli “crown faces are always smooth”. I just heard Roger Farish speak last night on sharks at the Dallas Paleontological Society meeting last night. It was an informative talk. He is the nicest man. I went on a kayak trip with a group. He was the one leading the kayak trip. He is so kind, soft spoken and patient. He had a lot of shark teeth and modern jaws sitting out on the table. This was one of them. It may be helpful. I have a lot more pics I took. I’ll have to post those later though. I need to get to bed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted September 14, 2018 Author Share Posted September 14, 2018 Hope this helps North Central Texas Eagle Ford Group / Ozan Formation Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twinlukers Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 Nice looking tooth. Great find.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikaelS Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 It's a Cretodus. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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