Fossils for Sale - SVP 2019

[Wrangellian]

4 minutes ago, DPS Ammonite said:

Are you saying that the disagreement was over individuals selling their own fossils or a museum selling fossils?

Not the museum's fossils! Individuals like me selling their own finds. I should clarify that the dispute wasn't as simple as me saying we should be allowed to sell fossils, and him disagreeing, and then me quitting. There was more to it than that but perhaps this isn't the right place for me to air all that. This was about 8 years ago.

[DPS Ammonite]

14 minutes ago, Wrangellian said:

Not the museum's fossils! Individuals like me selling their own finds. 

Were you able to legally sell your fossils from BC before the new regulations were made? Could you sell fossils from both private and public lands?

 

Here in the US we can sell fossils collected from private land with owner’s permission. We can never sell or trade any fossils from public land with the possible exception of petrified wood collected with a permit.

 

[Wrangellian]

13 minutes ago, DPS Ammonite said:

Were you able to legally sell your fossils before the new regulations were made? Could you sell fossils from both private and public lands?

 

Here in the US we can sell fossils collected from private land with owner’s permission. We can never sell or trade any fossils from public land with the possible exception of petrified wood collected with a permit.

 

I don't know all the specifics of how it was before, but it seemed as though the only thing you couldn't do was collect from parks. I think everybody assumed you could sell it as long as you obtained it legally. Now you can't even sell fossils collected on private land (I don't think so, anyway).

[DPS Ammonite]

9 minutes ago, Wrangellian said:

Now you can't even sell fossils collected on private land.

I cannot image the US government taking away the right to sell fossils collected legally from private lands. Those are fighting words. Let’s hope that it never happens. 

[Wrangellian]

21 hours ago, DPS Ammonite said:

I cannot image the US government taking away the right to sell fossils collected legally from private lands. Those are fighting words. Let’s hope that it never happens. 

I could be wrong, but I don't think it's that likely down there, just based on the different political traditions I see between our two countries. Personally, I don't like the idea that I don't own my house and land, and any fossils I might find on it.. those would be fighting words for me if it weren't already the case. I've heard it said that it was 'a couple of academics' who drafted and lobbied for the new regulations in BC (I could give names but I won't). It was too much of a niche concern and I don't recall seeing anything about it in the news or anything, so there was little opposition. I was a little out of the loop at the time the regulations were being proposed. If I had been more on the ball, I would have gotten my thoughts a little better organized and sent something to my MLA (representative). The only opposition that I know of, I learned about after the fact from our late member jbswake (John L.)

So, because the people at the Paleo societies have convinced themselves and the gov't that science loses out when fossils are sold, all fossils in BC are now considered to belong to everybody. Before, it was only fossils in parks that were condemned to crumble to dust once exposed at the surface...

[JohnJ]

@Wrangellian

 

You may consider editing your comments a bit.  Although discussion of the broader issues relating to this topic are allowed, the forum is not the place to air details of personal disputes. 

 

[Ptychodus04]

@Wrangellian that is an unfortunate story. 

[Ptychodus04]

1 hour ago, JohnJ said:

the forum is not the place to air details of personal disputes. 

Great! Now I have to delete my 10 page dissertation on all of @RJB’s personal qualities. 

Just kidding. I love Ron, he’s awesome (and lots of fun sitting around the campfire talking trash).

[Randyw]

7 hours ago, Ptychodus04 said:

Just kidding. I love Ron, he’s awesome (and lots of fun sitting around the campfire talking trash).

Now that’s something I’d love to do. I imagine sitting around a campfire with RJB and Ptychodus04 would be a very enjoyable evening! Add in caldigger and tidgysdad and holdinghistory and a few others and it’d be the closest thing to heaven this side of the pearly gates!

[FossilNerd]

18 minutes ago, Randyw said:

Now that’s something I’d love to do. I imagine sitting around a campfire with RJB and Ptychodus04 would be a very enjoyable evening! Add in caldigger and tidgysdad and holdinghistory and a few others and it’d be the closest thing to heaven this side of the pearly gates!

I don’t think that much awesomeness (Is that actually a word?) could be in one place at the same time! The universe couldn’t handle it! 

 

Although I have to agree... it would be great time!  

[Ptychodus04]

Don’t worry guys, Ron is usually in bed by 7:30 anyway. 
 

I can see it now, a TFF camping trip. Just imagine the possibilities.

 

Also, I’m kind of boring. Everyone here knows most of my prep stories already and once I talk about a couple hunting trips (next person to see me in the flesh, remember to ask about my son shooting a huge 8 point buck from the living room  ) and a couple camping stories, I’m pretty much done with the interesting parts of my life. 

[Wrangellian]

OK I've chopped a lot out of my comments... I hope what's left isn't too much like a personal dispute.

[JohnJ]

1 hour ago, Wrangellian said:

OK I've chopped a lot out of my comments... I hope what's left isn't too much like a personal dispute.

Thanks, Eric.

[Mark Kmiecik]

On 10/29/2019 at 12:26 AM, JohnJ said:

Thanks, Eric.

Now that it got me interested there's nothing left worth reading? Pity!

[Randyw]

On 10/28/2019 at 10:38 PM, Ptychodus04 said:

I’m pretty much done with the interesting parts of my life. 

Some of us are newer and haven’t heard them yet! Heck just hearing your tips and oopsy stories would carry us late into the night!

[JohnJ]

3 hours ago, Mark Kmiecik said:

Now that it got me interested there's nothing left worth reading? Pity!

 

If you want personal drama, try social media sites.  We publish based on different standards, here.  

[Ludwigia]

On 29.10.2019 at 4:38 AM, Ptychodus04 said:

 

I can see it now, a TFF camping trip. Just imagine the possibilities.

 

 

You can count me in there too I love camping.

 

Looks like the main topic of discussion is winding down a bit now. Nice to see that we can still have a lot of fun here despite the level of seriousness of discussion.

I noticed this topic right from the start, but wanted to wait for the right moment where I had enough free time to concentrate on it, but better late than never, eh? I don't have much more to add to what has already been said except to thank @Troodon for opening up a very important topic and to all participants for their revealing comments, particularly to those among us who are or have been active members of the scientific community. I really appreciate the detail, precision, thoughtfulness and honesty which have gone into the comments and have been able to learn from them.

 

[Scylla]

On 10/26/2019 at 12:43 PM, FossilDAWG said:

I agree that those researchers choose not to study specimens in private collections.  How do you suggest they deal with the issue of reproducibility?  If an observation can be made only once, and never replicated, is that science?

 

Yes, ask an astronomer. One of my mentors in the lab used to say "if you throw a watermelon out the porthole and it falls up, that is not statistically significant, but it is still a very powerfull observation!" Reproducibility is an important goal in scientific experimentation, but it is very rarely actually done. Every scientific field has its own idiosyncrasies (image search this for more fun)

When studies are reproduced some very troubling results are found. In some cases only 11% are actually reproducible. Part of this is because science is complex, part of it because we have chosen the wrong statistical paradigm. Anyway I still agree with much of what Don says. 1. Museums are safer than my garage. 2. The original fossil is better than casts or scans. 3. Taxonomy has its own idiosyncratic needs. 4. Reproducibility is an important goal in science.

However, these can't be absolutes. Only a Sith deals in absolutes. My opinion is that a balance between the best, purest science and science that actually can get done is important. Most pros and non-pros work well together and the Sith Lords undermine that by trying to outlaw private collecting or sales, etc. 

[-Andy-]

Sensible and reasonable words by everyone here.

 

I disagree with Thomas Carr of course. His stance is too extreme and if all museums followed his stance, how many fossils would be left in a museum to be studied?

 

My humble opinion on the matter of private fossil ownership and the sales of fossils is that it would be wonderful if museums had the space, budget and time to dig, study and document all scientifically-valuable specimens. The fact is - they don't. It too would be wonderful if fossil diggers and collectors properly cataloged all the data of their fossils and donated the ones that are rare and scientifically-valuable to museums. The fact is - many do! But they chose to do so. If they decide to sell their fossils, that's fine too. They deserve to be paid for their effort and time in finding and prepping the fossil.

 

What about the high price of some fossils? Yes, they have been priced out of the reach of many museums and I agree it's unfortunate. But museums do not have an inherent claim to fossils just because they are rare and scientifically-valuable. If the fossil is legally found on privately-owned or leased land, then it belongs to the digger/landowner by law. If they successfully sell the fossil for a lot of money, then all the power to them. It could help pay for a nice family holiday, send their kids to a university, repay debts and plenty more. My point is - not everyone is willing to give up a potentially huge paycheck to contribute to science, and we shouldn't force them to or guilt-trip them. It is their right to do whatever they want with their fossil.

 

The Lee Kong Chian Museum wanted three Diplodocus skeletons, and they cost over 7 million to purchase. There was a fundraising and yes, we successfully acquired the skeletons. The museum is happy, the people are proud to have helped, the dealers and landowners are happy. All in all, everyone wins.

 

I am glad to say that in my travels to several museums, most paleontologists and curators I met were more than happy to display my fossils which were obviously purchased and not found by me. They get to showcase new specimens outside of their collection and I get to do my part to educate the public.

 

Science can only progress if more academics are willing to work with private diggers and collectors (and vice versa!)

[StevenJD]

Exactly right Andy, well said 

[Wrangellian]

On 10/30/2019 at 6:56 PM, Mark Kmiecik said:

Now that it got me interested there's nothing left worth reading? Pity!

You only missed my account of my impotent attempt to influence the impending fossil regulations here in BC a few years back, and how my relations with some of the relevant people went bad as a result. It's hard to tell the former without the latter as it's really the same story, but it's too sordid for here. The whole affair had a role in shaping my current viewpoint, along with a book that someone recommended to me called Sidetracked: The Struggle for BC's Fossils. That one is worth reading...

[Scylla]

On 10/28/2019 at 7:07 PM, Randyw said:

Now that’s something I’d love to do. I imagine sitting around a campfire with RJB and Ptychodus04 would be a very enjoyable evening! Add in caldigger and tidgysdad and holdinghistory and a few others and it’d be the closest thing to heaven this side of the pearly gates!

Sadly prophetic 

[Ash]

Haven’t read all this thread yet, I’m still on page one. Just throwing my 2c in:

 

i dont get why it all has to be about making a buck (same for life in general, but that’s a whole different topic). Skye and I will be donating our entire collection, and we’re not going to get a dime for it. All those crabs we’re getting prepped at the moment? Going to the museum (eventually).

 

If the commercial collectors weren’t going and making a market and jacking prices up so it’s hard for amateurs to get access then it would be amateurs making these finds, reporting them to museums and museums going and collecting them with all data required uncompromised. That’s how we operate here in Australia. It’s all amateurs and it’s done with museum collaboration. This is how it should be IMO. 

 

Im aware it would be difficult for people to get things like Rex teeth without access but it would stop events like Sue (assuming people do the right thing).

 

 

to summarise - it shouldn’t be a commercial venture and shouldn’t be for profit. I just can’t word my meaning outside my head correctly 

[TyBoy]

2 hours ago, Ash said:

Haven’t read all this thread yet, I’m still on page one. Just throwing my 2c in:

 

i dont get why it all has to be about making a buck (same for life in general, but that’s a whole different topic). Skye and I will be donating our entire collection, and we’re not going to get a dime for it. All those crabs we’re getting prepped at the moment? Going to the museum (eventually).

 

If the commercial collectors weren’t going and making a market and jacking prices up so it’s hard for amateurs to get access then it would be amateurs making these finds, reporting them to museums and museums going and collecting them with all data required uncompromised. That’s how we operate here in Australia. It’s all amateurs and it’s done with museum collaboration. This is how it should be IMO. 

 

Im aware it would be difficult for people to get things like Rex teeth without access but it would stop events like Sue (assuming people do the right thing).

 

 

to summarise - it shouldn’t be a commercial venture and shouldn’t be for profit. I just can’t word my meaning outside my head correctly 

Commercial means for profit othewise WHY do it.  Is it their business to dig for a fossil and loose money heck NO,   its called capitalism.  Lots of the wonderful skeletons we see in museums are there because of commercial diggers.   Most diggers I've seen are not wealthy entrepreneurs they scratch and claw to make a living.

[Ash]

Your reference to skeletons in museums being from commercial diggers misses my point. Amateurs lack the access due to commercials getting it instead (due to money). Commercials then find the skeleton and sell it to a museum.

 

vs

 

amateur gets permission. Finds skeleton, informs museum, museum come and remove skeleton and don’t have to pay an enormous cost that could have been used to further research and education.