Turtle Eggs, Different Pics

[turtleguy]

The xray is of an unhatched egg, that makes them harder to see in an xray. I'm working on getting a scan from a company called northstar imaging.They are able to get three d images of fossils.

[turtleguy]

These pics were taken with my not so smart phone,sorry about the quality.

[DLB]

Love turtle egg soup oh I mean fossils

[Auspex]

I'd be delighted if you could get your hands on a camera with good macro capability

[jpc]

I'd be delighted if you could get your hands on a camera with good macro capability

ME, TOO. i SEE EGGSHELL THAT LOOKS MORE LIKE DiNOSAUR OR BIRD EGGSHELL ON THE EDGE OF YOUR SPECIMEN. (sorry about the caps lock button). Turtle eggs are leathery and do not have a crystaline shell cross-section.

[turtleguy]

Ive had the eggshell discussion before... First, when is the last time anyone saw a turtle egg larger than a softball. What was yours like? Second,although I know this picture isn't that good.so I'm working on getting another xray of a second rock,the university of Mn. Did a quick scan on the biggest most complete "egg" to see if they could do a three D image. The gray scale wasn't set correctly so the three d Image didnt turn out. They were playing with there new machine till the guy who runs it got there. I'm going to get another quick scan and this time.capture the image. If your looking in rocks for turtles and find two of them.... well you decide. When I get better epics ill post them

[jpc]

I don't see a turtle in the x-ray.... There is something in there, but not a turtle skeleton...

Edited January 18, 2013 by jpc

[old dead things]

It does seem quite large for a turtle egg. Do you have information of a formation, age and where you found it? It is intriguing and I hope we find out more about it.

Do you have any suggestions as to the name or species of turtle that might have laid this egg?

Jim

[turtleguy]

I know the xray isn't the best, Ill try to post a clearer one.this xray is not one of a complete skeleton.The only complete egg I have, I'm working on getting that one xrayed. Any way without seeing this stuff in person I don't expect anyone to be satisfied with what I'm able to provide at this time. I will try to post some better epics for better comparisons. If I'm going about this the wrong way, I apoligise.Its hard to teach an old truck driver new tricks and some of you paleolithic guys are hard to deal with. I'm learning,but some of you should keep an open mind... "There's more things in heaven and earth "

[jpc]

Hmmmm... am I one of the paleolithic types you refer to? Its OK, I've ben called worse. Let's start with this... I have seen a lot of fossil eggs, turtle, bird and dinosaur. I have probably collected more fossil turtle eggs than anyone on this forum. Even collected a few modern ones. I have seen more than my share of people who come in to our museum and say... "Look at this egg I found" And in the eight years I have been here, none of them have proved to be an egg.

In the hope of teaching an ole truck driver some new tricks, and I hope I am not being too hard to deal with (I have not been called that one before). One of the things I really like about this forum is that we like to teach beginners what we know. Let's take this one step at a time. I can see why you might think it is an egg, but why a turtle egg?

And here is why I think it is not a turtle egg...( again, I hope I am not being hard to deal with, rather instructional)

1) it is very big. Google "Galapagos Tortoise egg" and/or "leatherback turtle egg" and you'll see they are smaller than yours. OK, there are a few turtles form antiquity that are bigger than our modern largest turtles, so maybe they had larger eggs, but most turtles (and their eggs) are smaller than your egg.

2) Your specimen has a nice crystal-like outer coating. This is what one would expect to see in bird and dinosaur eggs. Turtle eggs have a non-crystal leathery surface.

3) the x-ray shows something. I have seen and interpreted a lot of fossil xrays and Ct scans, and indeed they can be hard to decipher. Different minerals also show up in xrays. Here is what I see in the xray: There are a few marks that could be interprted as bones... in black in the picture below. But these do not add up to turtle... or anythng. There also a lot of cracks in the rock... I didn't highlight them, but the random lines all throughout. Cracks, probably filled with a different mineral than the rock. Now, on the upper edge of the xray is something that could be interpreted as a small turtle, outlined in red. If the white line running through it is the backbone and the pieces sticking out perpendicular to it are the shell plates, BUT. If that was the spine, it would be in sections, not a solid line as this is. Not a turtle.

having said all that, here is what to look for if you think it might actually be an egg (bird or dino)... the crystal pattern runs perpendicular to the surface. Look at a piece of chicken egg up close and you'll see what I mean. This same pattern is what we look for when someone brings an "egg" into our museum... haven't seen it yet.

Whatever this thing is, it is intriguing. Thanks for listening.

jpc

Edited January 18, 2013 by jpc

[Fossildude19]

Hmmmm... am I one of the paleolithic types you refer to? Its OK, I've ben called worse. Let's start with this...

...Whatever this thing is, it is intriguing. Thanks for listening.

jpc

Well stated, JP.

Thanks for breaking it down.

I was wondering about the whys about it as well.

Regards,

[THobern]

Its hard to teach an old truck driver new tricks and some of you paleolithic guys are hard to deal with. I'm learning,but some of you should keep an open mind... "There's more things in heaven and earth "

What leads you to believe that it's a turtle egg?

[AgrilusHunter]

Hi JP,

That is one of the better posts I've seen on the Forum describing the whys and why nots of a fossil egg. Good advice from an excellent source. Well done!

[jpc]

Thanks for the thumbs up folks... it took me all of my lunch hour.

[Auspex]

Thanks for the thumbs up folks... it took me all of my lunch hour.

I love eggs for lunch!

[turtleguy]

As it turns out my turtle eggs are the only ones ive seen, so in reality I know nothing about the field, I do however know what Ive got. While you are most likley right about the common fossils; I must have a fairly uncommon one so you just hold your thoughts and Ill try to prove it. I do have some tests I'm setting up. If I'm right it may prove interesting. Hmmmm,I wonder what crow taste like. Might take a couple of weeks,

[THobern]

...so in reality I know nothing about the field, I do however know what Ive got...

You've given your conclusions, but can you spell out your reasoning?

[AgrilusHunter]

... so in reality I know nothing about the field, I do however know what Ive got ...

Hi turtleguy,

I hope you don't take this as too negative as I really would like your fossils to be turtle eggs. What's more, If these turn out to be turtle eggs I will gladly eat my words just for the chance to see more pictures of them. However, I think it's a rare occurence when the above two statements can be used successfully in the same sentence. Truly I wish you the best of luck with your research and tests.

edit: ... and THobern beat me to it.

Edited January 19, 2013 by AgrilusHunter

[turtleguy]

No not to hard, what I really don't understand is some people are so sure I don't have what I think I have without even getting a real close look. Whew that was a mouth full.but seriously.I don't mind being wrong.if I am. If I'm wrong,Ill pick the feathers out of my mouth and let you know.

[THobern]

No not to hard, what I really don't understand is some people are so sure I don't have what I think I have without even getting a real close look. Whew that was a mouth full.but seriously.I don't mind being wrong.if I am. If I'm wrong,Ill pick the feathers out of my mouth and let you know.

You didn't answer the question.

[JohnJ]

.... Do you have information of a formation, age and where you found it? ....

Jim

To follow up on Jim's question, can you tell us the general location of this find?

[Auspex]

This isn't about "some people", it is about applying an analytical approach to parsing the evidence. "Mr. Some People" is a straw man who has no place in the process.

[turtleguy]

I found these fossils about thirty some years ago on the Texas Oklahoma border, on a weekend campping trip off base. About five years ago after a couple of neck surgeries, I started looking at all the rocks Id gathered over the years. When I got to these I saw was a pattern that looked like the belly plates of a turtle. After more looking one of the others looked like a weather worn and erroded carapace. From there I went to a local university where I was given a sample of fossilized turtle shell to show me mine didn't look the same. When I got home I still wasn't convinced; anyone surprised?; Sometime later, a day or two, I was looking at what I thought was an egg broken in half right through what appeared to be the carapace, the egg shell was missing from the top. While shhining a light on it I noticed a series of bumps that seemed to be connected by bars. I retrieved the sample from Dr. Rogers and found theft matched. Dr. Rogers thought I should cut one open. I thought Id try to get an xray. I haven't been in contact with Dr. Rogrers again.tho ive tried. Since then ive gotten two drays,both show a turtle a second rock had a quick scan to see if there's anything to get a thee d image. The company that does the drays is convinced enough to take time to do the three d image. Not everyone is convinced these are turtle eggs. The xray that I posted seemes to be a turtle torn out of its carapace inside the egg shell when it got flattened. Part of the skeleton seems to have been extruded from the egg. There apeares to be the head and neck some sort of leg or hip structure and one leg stretched out. The whole skeleton is aprox four inches long.the sides of its jaws have a v notch. Unlike any modern turtle I know of. Part of the carapace is missing. When you look at the xray, the way I see it, the carapace is at the top while the skeleton floats in the middle and the line for the belly plates is at the bottom. An exploded veiw with parts missing. Any way Ive shown these to quite a few people. Some wont even look at them. Others say they need more proof. Some seem to know what ive got even before they see them. That is frustrating!

[AgrilusHunter]

Hi turtleguy,

Has anyone you've shown these to said that they were turtle eggs, or is that just your belief? Has a paleontologist seen these x-rays and confirmed what you think are seeing? I understand tenacity, and I respect you for it, but it needs to be balanced by a willingness to accept an alternative explanation. At some point you will have to start trusting in the knowledge of the people you ask for information.

Is it more likely that all of the experts you have asked are correct and your specimen is not a turtle's egg? Or is it more likely that your specimen is some kind of turtle's egg that has never been seen before, ever, and has completely different characteristics from all other known turtle eggs?

Edited January 19, 2013 by AgrilusHunter

[Auspex]

Building a hypothesis based on observation of the physical evidence is step one of the process. Reconciling those interpretations with what is already well known about the subject is step two. The testing in this case has revealed flaws that need to be addressed; ignoring them will not advance the process.