Show us your Devonian Epizoans & Pathological Brachiopods!

[Coco]

Hi,

 

On 3/4/2020 at 9:59 AM, fifbrindacier said:

Sophie, if you have the chance, try passing that fossil under a UV lamp. I found something at Grand Pressigny that had reddish spots of this kind and they reacted to UV.

 

Coco

[Herb]

from the Lower Devonian Birdsong Formation of Tennessee.

1. Aulopora schoharie on  Discomyorthis oblata.

2.Cornulites sp.

3. Hederella sp.

4.Leptotrypella sp.

5./6. Ptylodictya tenuis an individual bryozoan colony

7./8. Spirorbis laxus

9. Aulopora schohaire

these are the ID's I have some may be out of date. They were ID'd 20 years ago.

 

[fifbrindacier]

22 minutes ago, Coco said:

Hi,

 

Sophie, if you have the chance, try passing that fossil under a UV lamp. I found something at Grand Pressigny that had reddish spots of this kind and they reacted to UV.

 

Coco

Ok.

[Brach3]

On 04.03.2020 at 10:52 AM, Mediospirifer said:

brachiopod grew, until it became incorporated into the shell.

@Mediospirifer blisters inside valves point out that "Relationships to live hosts", because brachiopod tried to treat holes in the valve.

We can definitely say about the sponge or algae.

 

About algae: "Microscopic algae also occur in the shell wall of some brachiopods. Traces of their boring were found in the chonetid Chonetina artiensis Krotow from the Artinskian Stage, Lower Permian of the Middle Urals. The burrows look like fine holes in the shell surface, which are arranged in rows and form a branchy pattern that is not connected with the shell structures (Afanasjeva, 1977). The presence of these parasites does not influence the shell symmetry. Similar traces of microscopic boring algae have also been found in the shells of bivalves. According to Maksimova (1977), they could only contribute to the acceleration of shell detritus formation."

 

"The presence of these parasites does not influence the shell symmetry." 

 

If it's incrustation/encrustation of something (about "bivalve" or brachiopods) then we should see Asymmetry of a valve, but we don't see it.

See example, i've send to you this paper (First report of brachiopod–brachiopod endoparasitism MENA SCHEMM-GREGORY AND MARK SUTTON):

 

May be there was something else in Ordovic, but I don't have about it information... So let's collect materials and find reasons for any ideas AND "cutting Bad specimens (bad quality) and polishing a piece"  but i think it's a sponge!

 

On 04.03.2020 at 10:52 AM, Mediospirifer said:

If a piece of dead shell got washed into the brachiopod's living chamber, could the brachiopod expel it? 

They can't  

 

the sand between the mantle and the valve will make a scar.

Brachiopods use only quick close valves for disposal of garbage... 

 

but brachiopods have "ability to retract / stretch their mantle" near commisure (1-2 mm)

 

On 04.03.2020 at 5:59 PM, fifbrindacier said:

I just have discovered that fantastic thread.

 

@fifbrindacier 

 

What's is it?  it looks like borehole... or modern damage

 

 

What's is it?  it looks like  Serpula (Serpulidae)...

 

Please check your collection for pathology, abnormality.

For example: 

If you have i will write about ...   

 

(?)Gonorynchia maxima i can't find name in data base, please check name

 

It's very interesting type of brachiopods for me too  if you need i have information about "life position" and their paleoecology...

how much/many specimens do you have? 

 

23 hours ago, mikeymig said:

@mikeymig 

 

For me it's "Relationships to dead hosts" but let's ask about it and @Mediospirifer & @Tidgy's Dad because there are several opinions about "life position" of these brachiopods.

 

And there is a very interesting moment relationship epizoans to epizoans it's always very interesting to see their behavior

  

 

What's is it in the centre of the red ring?  i can't look closer (only pixels)

 

!!!

it looks like "life position" of Cyrtina 

two brachiopods on brachiopod  mmm

This specimen we should store in a safe

How often do you find such specimens? 

 

What's is it in the centre of the red ring?  i can't look closer (only pixels)

 

 mmm (it's a very beautiful specimen)

What is from theother side? It's look like "Relationships to live hosts"

 

19 hours ago, Herb said:

from the Lower Devonian Birdsong Formation of Tennessee.

 

@Herb  

 

What's is it?  it looks like Cornulites sp?

 

What's is it?  it looks like Graptolites dendroid...

Can you also photo brachiopod entirely/completely/full? 

 

Microconchida (see above i have written about it before)

 

What's is it? it's very interesting!!!...

 

And about Aulopora sp

 

we have found 2 very interesting specimens which shows us behavior of branches among themselves...  "Relationships to live hosts"

 

[mikeymig]

@Brach3 I forgot to mention them. Thats Petrocrania hamiltoniae, an inarticulate brachiopod that attaches to other brachiopods and bivalves. Good eye.

[Herb]

Brach3 I have ID'd them on the original post

[fifbrindacier]

15 hours ago, Brach3 said:

 

@fifbrindacier 

 

What's is it?  it looks like borehole... or modern damage

 

 

What's is it?  it looks like  Serpula (Serpulidae)...

 

Please check your collection for pathology, abnormality.

For example: 

If you have i will write about ...   

 

(?)Gonorynchia maxima i can't find name in data base, please check name

 

It's very interesting type of brachiopods for me too  if you need i have information about "life position" and their paleoecology...

how much/many specimens do you have? 

Hi Brach3, the identification has been made in that forum : https://brachiopoda.xooit.fr/t783-Quelle-rynchonelle.htm (you'll see there better photos of it). The choice between Gonorynchia maxima maxima and Gonorynchia maxima ligerica was impossible to make so we stayed at Gonorynchia maxima. Almeras and Cougnon published about those two species in 2013.

I think the hole is a borehole and that the other trace is from a serpula.

I found it in a field which is cretaceous along with a jurassic ammonite so i think there was a micro shuffle. It is Bathonian or Callovian.

I have only that one specimen.

 

I think i have a pathologic rynchonella, but i'm not sure wether it's pathologic or just an individual variation.

 

Cheers,

 

Sophie.

[fifbrindacier]

Here is the "beast" i spoke about up there. I think it might be a Torquirhynchia. And all the brachiopods below are from the Kimmeridgian of La Pointe du Chay in Charentes Maritimes, France.

 

Here with another rhynchonella. This one is pathologic and has at least one serpulid on it.

 

Here is another rhynchonellid with an epibiont 

 

And there is also that Xestosina which boreholes (i think postmortem) and what i call a "scar" on its back (i suppose that face is the back ?)

[fifbrindacier]

Ordovician of Cincinnati

 

Vinlandostrophia

 

Hiscoheccus capax

 

Cincinettina meeki

 

Zygospira modesta

 

Rafiaesquina ponderosa (or Strophomena ?)

 

Widder formation, Arkona, Ontario

 

 

Penn Dixie

[Brach3]

On 06.03.2020 at 12:34 PM, fifbrindacier said:

This one is pathologic

@fifbrindacier

It's look like "compression/flattening of the brachiopod is crush damage from geological processes", not pathologic 

Shrinkage of the host sediment. Crushing shells before fossilization is associated with shrinkage of the host sediment inside the shell.

 

 

On 04.03.2020 at 5:59 PM, fifbrindacier said:

Gonorynchia

Goniorhynchia 

 

Let's find Goniorhynchia with Commissural asymmetry in your fields... there are a lot of brachiopods with this pathology 

see Commissural asymmetry in brachiopods FRANZ T. FÜRSICH  TIM PALMER 1984

 wow, what is it? it looks like a coral? 

I've never seen on our russian jurassic brachiopods such epizoans ... 

it's very interesting... 

 

I don't understand: is it the core of the shell or the shell? 

if the core then It looks like worm trails (mud-eater)

if the shell then worm trails (Polychaeta)

 

I don't see here any epizoans or pathology

What is it there? 

 

What is it?  I can't see only pixels in big size 

 

it's not epizoan (a single valve)

 

I think All your specimens from Ordovic we should show to @Mediospirifer to check them

 

Here there is very interesting situation with "tightness/closeness settlement/colony" 

See examples:

deformity of the ears 

 

For understanding: these 2 brachiopods are the same genus and species, and the same age/year

 

Can I ask you to use double click on your photo to do small images in one topic/post

because my browser don't show me all your photos (not enough memory may be)

I see only white gaps  but there are photos!!! 

(upload big size and resize to small on TFF)

 

@Herb

"3. Hederella sp." it looks like Graptolites dendroid please check it 

"7/8 spirorbis" please see up there about spirorbis/Microconchida it looks like Palaeoconchus sp.

Dendroid graptolites from the Lower Ordovician (Tremadocian) of the Yichang area, Hubei, China (PDF)

 

"5./6. Ptylodictya tenuis an individual bryozoan colony"

suddenly  !!! applause 

[Mediospirifer]

Being mostly housebound lately, Mr. Spirifer and I have been going through some of the uncatalogged rocks from recent fossil-hunting expeditions. We're presently going through the collection from our last trip to Deep Springs Rd (last fall), and I think this specimen belongs here. 

 

I recognized in the field that this was a bivalve impression with Aulopora serpens encrusting it, but there was something a little odd about it:

 

 

Looking at it under magnification, I see the impression of the bivalve and the Aulopora, but that fine-scale texture is no coral! This was a doubly-encrusted shell, with a bryozoan growing over the corallites. It's hard to identify the structure from the underside, but the closest I find in my book is Leptotrypella amplectens. I'm looking primarily at the left end of the fossil, where the body of the bryo is missing and the surface impression is visible.

 

I'll post a closer view of that area next. 

[Mediospirifer]

Here's the bryozoan surface texture. I'll have to plug in my digital microscope and get a better closeup sometime; this is OK to show what I could see, but I can do better:

 

 

And here's a section of the underside of the bryozoan, where it contacted the coral:

 

 

It's hard to tell from this side, but I don't see evidence of the corallites reaching through the bryo to feed, so this looks to me to be likely a crust on a dead coral, possibly on a dead bivalve as well. I'd love to make a plaster base of this side, then have someone who's experienced at preparation remove the matrix from the top side! I'd also want to make a mold of this side first, if it could be done without damaging the bryo.

 

This is the first Leptotrypella I've found. Apparently this kind of association is not unknown: my fossil guide says in the description of Leptotrypella "Often found encrusting Aulopora coral growing on large brachiopods such as Spinocyrtia." And the drawing shows a brachiopod, partly covered in a mat of bryozoan (which extends beyond the shell margin) that has corallites poking through. I take this to mean that Leptotrypella preferred the conditions that Aulopora thrived in, and the two species were capable of living together for a sustained period.

 

Pretty cool! 

 

[Brach3]

8 hours ago, Mediospirifer said:

Being mostly housebound lately

I can't... I'll go crazy (lose my mind)  I've been home for 3 weeks!!!... 

it's quarantine for all country... and i don't know how long we will be at home... 

 

"We're presently going through the collection"

 so yes it's a good idea to speak about fossils  and see photos !!! 

 

"This was a doubly-encrusted shell, with a bryozoan growing over the corallites"

Yes, it's looks like "doubly-encrusted shell" ("two storey house")

 

"a crust on a dead coral, possibly on a dead bivalve"

We have to know a life position of this bivalve for understanding. 

 

"I take this to mean that Leptotrypella preferred the conditions that Aulopora thrived in"

Yes, they need a Hard substrate.

 

"and the two species were capable of living together for a sustained period."

I would like to see many more such specimens, it's very interesting 

 

"This is the first Leptotrypella I've found." + "Pretty cool! "

@Mediospirifer  my congratulation! 

[fifbrindacier]

On 08/03/2020 at 10:25 AM, Brach3 said:

@fifbrindacier

It's look like "compression/flattening of the brachiopod is crush damage from geological processes", not pathologic 

Shrinkage of the host sediment. Crushing shells before fossilization is associated with shrinkage of the host sediment inside the shell.

 

 

Goniorhynchia 

 

Let's find Goniorhynchia with Commissural asymmetry in your fields... there are a lot of brachiopods with this pathology 

see Commissural asymmetry in brachiopods FRANZ T. FÜRSICH  TIM PALMER 1984

 wow, what is it? it looks like a coral? 

I've never seen on our russian jurassic brachiopods such epizoans ... 

it's very interesting... 

 

I don't understand: is it the core of the shell or the shell? 

if the core then It looks like worm trails (mud-eater)

if the shell then worm trails (Polychaeta)

 

I don't see here any epizoans or pathology

What is it there? 

 

What is it?  I can't see only pixels in big size 

 

it's not epizoan (a single valve)

 

I think All your specimens from Ordovic we should show to @Mediospirifer to check them

 

Here there is very interesting situation with "tightness/closeness settlement/colony" 

See examples:

deformity of the ears 

 

For understanding: these 2 brachiopods are the same genus and species, and the same age/year

 

Can I ask you to use double click on your photo to do small images in one topic/post

because my browser don't show me all your photos (not enough memory may be)

I see only white gaps  but there are photos!!! 

(upload big size and resize to small on TFF)

I thank you very much for your explanations.

I'm sorry, but i really don't know how how to do this with the photos. The double click don't work, but i've managed otherwise.

 

I really like that Goniorynchia's assymetry.

 

I really don't know what this is. It might be a crinoïd stem, but i really don't know.

 

I think this is a tiny bryozoan.

[Brach3]

1 hour ago, fifbrindacier said:

I really like that Goniorynchia's assymetry.

 

It's a very rare specimen with asymmetry. I've seen only one photo.

May be there are a lot of such brachiopods in Jurassic, I don't know.

But we know that they must be!  see example from J3

 

 

 

@fifbrindacier One spirolophous arm atrophied and the filtration system consisted of one incurrent and one excurrent water flows (Ager, 1965; Asgaard, 1968; Brookfield, 1973). After quarantine let's find such in Jurassic! 

 

@Mediospirifer For more see: Afanasjeva G. A., Asymmetry in Brachiopods, 2014 

 

And life position for these brachiopods: 

 

From Ordovic:

 

 

Devonian:

 

And from Ordovic 3

See fo more: @Mediospirifer OLDEST RECORD OF PEDUNCULAR ATTACHMENT OF BRACHIOPODS TO CRINOID STEMS, UPPER ORDOVICIAN, OHIO, U.S.A. 
MICHAEL R. SANDYб 1996

 

 

in Jurassic you will have the same life position

so don't miss rare specimens!!!  

[fifbrindacier]

Are the photos small enough for you and do you want me to reduce other ones ?

[Brach3]

32 minutes ago, fifbrindacier said:

Are the photos small enough for you

Yes now I see, thank you very much! My browser don't show photos when the are in a very big size

I don't know why. In explore ok, in my yandex browser don't work 

 

You can resize your photos in your topics. 

I do these steps:

1. upload photo in my message 

2. double click on photo in the message

3. resize it (250 pic)

so we have a very big photo in a small view  

 

ps I have added an examples (life position) for your brachiopods above.

I think you will find very rare brachiopods, there are a lot of them in France.

But after quarantine!

[fifbrindacier]

The life position is when the valves are open or when they are found attached to their shelf (or both situations) ?

[Brach3]

39 minutes ago, fifbrindacier said:

when they are found attached to their shelf 

Yes, when you find them "in suit" (attached to something and brachiopods in group, oriented in one direction).

 

This is a painting oil on canvas (author Lyudmila Saveleva) for museum (Russian Academy of Sciences in the Urals).

I've helped with brachiopods. This is Devonian Period (D2/D3) in Russia but in USA in D2 was the same (close to this). 

Here brachiopods are in "life position" 

 

 "when the valves are open"

it's taphonomy. Please see these 3 photo it's only a rare preservation (conservation) but not "life position"

 

You may be interesting in this brachiopod: 

Spiriferina pinguii

Chateauroux, Indre, France

from Jurassic (chemical preparation)

 

And we know very interesting situations with brachiopods: 

When we find crystals into brachiopods it means - brachiopod was alife, when mud had covered the brachiopods.

 

 

 

And when we find mud into brachiopod - brachiopod was dead.   

 

----  "(or both situations) ?" ----

Yes, we can have both situations:

 

life position + opened valves (dead brachiopods)

 

life position + opened valves (alive brachiopods)

 

modern brachiopods are in "life position". When you find them in stone mud ("in suit") they can be in "life position", when storms haven't broken brachiopods, and they have stayed in group. It's very very rare specimens to find brachiopods in "life position"!!! 

[fifbrindacier]

1 hour ago, Brach3 said:

Yes, when you find them "in suit" (attached to something and brachiopods in group, oriented in one direction).

 

This is a painting oil on canvas (author Lyudmila Saveleva) for museum (Russian Academy of Sciences in the Urals).

I've helped with brachiopods. This is Devonian Period (D2/D3) in Russia but in USA in D2 was the same (close to this). 

Here brachiopods are in "life position" 

 

 "when the valves are open"

it's taphonomy. Please see these 3 photo it's only a rare preservation (conservation) but not "life position"

 

You may be interesting in this brachiopod: 

Spiriferina pinguii

Chateauroux, Indre, France

from Jurassic (chemical preparation)

 

And we know very interesting situations with brachiopods: 

When we find crystals into brachiopods it means - brachiopod was alife, when mud had covered the brachiopods.

 

 

 

And when we find mud into brachiopod - brachiopod was dead.   

 

----  "(or both situations) ?" ----

Yes, we can have both situations:

 

life position + opened valves (dead brachiopods)

 

life position + opened valves (alive brachiopods)

 

modern brachiopods are in "life position". When you find them in stone mud ("in suit") they can be in "life position", when storms haven't broken brachiopods, and they have stayed in group. It's very very rare specimens to find brachiopods in "life position"!!! 

Thank you for those adds, it's very interesting. I didn't know there were crystals in Brachs. because they were buried alive.

I asked what this epibiont below was on another forum and it appears it is a Nanogyra oyster with, herself, a worm tube inside.

[Mediospirifer]

1 hour ago, fifbrindacier said:

I asked what this epibiont below was on another forum and it appears it is a Nanogyra oyster with, herself, a worm tube inside.

 

I was thinking that looked something like an oyster spat (juvenile oyster), but I'm not even close to expert on mollusks.  

 

These two are also interesting:

 

 

Area #1 could be geological marks. I've found some brachiopods that weathered out of a death plate, and a single valve on top on the specimen I found was pressed into the lower brachiopod, leaving the impression of the hinge line and teeth in my specimen. This one looks similar.

 

Area #2 is interesting, but with the matrix obscuring it I can't say whether it's pathological of geological. Can you post a straight-on photo of the other side? A bite mark should appear on both valves, while geological marks aren't usually symmetrical. It would be interesting to see what the valve looks like with the matrix cleaned off.

 

Area #3 does look like a cleft, although I don't see the other side! Can you post a straight-on photo of the other side of that one, too? 

 

And, of course, the asymmetry of that specimen is impressive! Here's a photo of my best asymmetrical brachiopod. In mine, the cause is obvious:

 

 

When I see a mark on a shell, I look for distortions of the plications between the mark and the valve margin. If the plications are distorted, then the mark was certainly inflicted to a living brachiopod, and it survived. Postmortem damage can be more difficult to distinguish from geological damage. A burrow will have cut edges, while geological marks will appear crushed, bent, or cracked.

 

Here's an example that I think is the impression of a hinge line (not with teeth) geologically pressed into the shell below:

 

 

There are two minor pathological areas on that shell (a small cleft at bottom middle, and a scalloped edge at left), but the line across the middle was after the brach died.

 

Sometime I should pull out and photograph some brachiopods that were distorted by geology. I've seen some fairly bizarre-looking specimens!

 

[fifbrindacier]

I'll take the photos tomorrow, good night.

[fifbrindacier]

Here are the photos i promised, if you need me to remove matrix or take other pics, don't hesitate to ask me :

 

[Brach3]

18 hours ago, fifbrindacier said:

it is a Nanogyra oyster with, herself, a worm tube inside

@fifbrindacier  it looks like a true! yes, it's topic for tricky disguised fossils )

and the answer can know only who collects a lot of such specimens

 

I've seen similar oysters from сretaceous and they also present riddles

I can't find photos but 2 years ago we wondered what settled into the sea urchin? all users from the paleo site wondered )) 

and it's was oyster too 

 

please see it's oysters on the sponges from сretaceous ) like your spicement 

 

@Mediospirifer "I was thinking that looked something like an oyster spat (juvenile oyster)"

 so you was right. About bivalves from Devonian it's very bad situation. We have only treatise from 1960 and new modern treatise scientists don't want to do ))) we have some books in russian (with some bivalves) + several books in english (with some bivalves), but not we don't know all the bivalves... so we have what we have. 

 

"Can you post a straight-on photo of the other side of that one, too? "

and additionally from D3 Ripidiorhynchus sp.  they are so nice!!!

 

Area #1, Area #2, Area #3 looks like "it's pathological of geological"

when mud hade covered the brachiopods they was empty.

mud have pushed down the brachiopods and they have flattened / deformed

 

"A burrow will have cut edges, while geological marks will appear crushed, bent, or cracked.".

Yes, i think we can see here the same situation

 

 

 

"it's pathological of geological" + Serpula sp. (worm tube)?

 

"I didn't know there were crystals in Brachs."

Yes, there are a lot of calcite crystals into brachiopods. Sometimes we can find very interesting specimens. But for preparation it's better when there are mud into the brachiopods, because brachiopods with crystals they break often. And water + sun can destroy brachiopods with crystals in the fields. So it's killer beauty 

 

[Mediospirifer]

I've been doing a lot of repacking fossils that haven't yet been catalogued, and found a few that are appropriate for this thread, most of which I didn't remember picking up!

 

First up, the one that I do remember finding: a "fossil mushroom" from the Deep Springs Rd site, collected during a group dig in 2018 (actually an encrusting growth, possibly Favosites sp, on a difficult-to-identify fossil, possibly Pseudoatrypa devoniana):

 

 

Next up, another specimen!