A broken Miocene Tooth2

[Shellseeker]

Not a lot of information here. The area we are hunting generally has small shark teeth, Megalodons, a very few Great Whites, plus marine mammal teeth, verts, etc. There is an occasional land mammal identification, such as Gomphothere. I generally think middle to late Miocene.

This is not my find.  I am trying to Identify for a friend.  My immediate reaction was not whale because I can not detect any horizontal banding and I should see it... Also I have not seen enamel caps on whale like this.

 

I thought Dolphin, but even now, I do not find that convincing. All comments appreciated.

 

[Darbi]

Crocodilian tooth? 

 

Is the base hollow? If I remember correctly, crocodilian tooth's base is hollow.

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

Doesn't really look like crocodile to me. Crocodile rarely has this rugose/bumpy/wavy ornamentation (the only type of crocodile I know this for would be shell-crushing crocs), rather having striations and often carinae - which the current specimen lacks. Also, the tooth looks way too massive for a typical crocodile tooth.

 

Instead, I think OP is onto something with the delphinoid suggestion. Though I'm absolutely not familiar with marine mammal teeth in the slightest, the first thing that came to mind when seeing this tooth and reading that suggestion was: orca/killer whale. See the image below and observe, especially, the folded nature of the tooth crown-to-root transition, as can be seen in the second image of the OP (there's a nice image of a "cloned bone" online which really exemplifies what I mean), as well as the "gutter" that both shown on the side of the tooth.

 

 

Alternatively, I also find the tooth discussed here to be similar in appearance to Hoplocetus ritzi, as illustrated below (figures 4 & 5) from Hampe, 2006, "Middle/late Miocene hoplocetine sperm whale remains (Odontoceti: Physeteridae) of North Germany with an emended classification of the Hoplocetinae". Interestingly, killer whales seem to have taken up the same nice as Hoplocetus did (could this explain the similarity in dentition?), yet the former seems to be a better visual match than the latter. However, as this is a Miocene find, Orcinus wouldn't have evolved yet...

 

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

And another Orcinus orca...

 

Charleston Marine Life Center
Oregon Institute of Marine Biology
Charleston, Oregon

[Shellseeker]

2 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Alternatively, I also find the tooth discussed here to be similar in appearance to Hoplocetus ritzi, as illustrated below (figures 4 & 5) from Hampe, 2006, "Middle/late Miocene hoplocetine sperm whale remains (Odontoceti: Physeteridae) of North Germany with an emended classification of the Hoplocetinae". Interestingly, killer whales seem to have taken up the same nice as Hoplocetus did (could this explain the similarity in dentition?), yet the former seems to be a better visual match than the latter. However, as this is a Miocene find, Orcinus wouldn't have evolved yet...

 

I believe this is our 1st interaction on TFF. Let me start with You have made a good 1st impression on me!  I like your style. Jack

I am trying to get size and root photo from finder..The tooth is not in my possession.

Cropped the Orca tooth. I see what you mean on the side grooves. It is what occurred to both the finder and me. We have each seen lots of whale and dolphin teeth from this area.  This tooth fragment is different. I wondered about the possibility of a pinniped like a miocene sea lion. 

EDIT:  As far as I can tell... NO Sea lions in Florida's Miocene.

Seems like I should flag @Boesse

 

 

 

I am going to take the time to read the paper you provided, search for additional teeth, Orca and Hoplocetus, thanks for the pointers.

 

Wanted to get this off before the day overtakes me.

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

43 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

I am going to take the time to read the paper you provided, search for additional teeth, Orca and Hoplocetus, thanks for the pointers.

 

Wanted to get this off before the day overtakes me.

No worries. Like I said, I have very little - i.e. close to none - experience with marine mammals, but thought the resemblance striking. I hope my suggestions lead somewhere useful

[Boesse]

I don't really find much resemblance between OPs tooth and a pinniped canine. The hollow* root that also happens to be quite short is due to this individual being a juvenile - it has enamel, faintly rugose at that, some weird longitudinal furrows in the root, and a hint of growth banding. I think this could be a Scaldicetus-grade juvenile sperm whale [sperm whales that still had enamel crowns]. Another peculiarity is that the root, and crown, are expanded in the anteroposterior direction - in most delphinids, the root is expanded linguo-labially and anteroposteriorly flattened (to fit more teeth in the jaw).

 

*We don't have a photo of the bottom of the root so it also just could be broken rather than hollow.

[Shellseeker]

49 minutes ago, Boesse said:

I don't really find much resemblance between OPs tooth and a pinniped canine. The hollow* root that also happens to be quite short is due to this individual being a juvenile - it has enamel, faintly rugose at that, some weird longitudinal furrows in the root, and a hint of growth banding. I think this could be a Scaldicetus-grade juvenile sperm whale [sperm whales that still had enamel crowns]. Another peculiarity is that the root, and crown, are expanded in the anteroposterior direction - in most delphinids, the root is expanded linguo-labially and anteroposteriorly flattened (to fit more teeth in the jaw).

 

*We don't have a photo of the bottom of the root so it also just could be broken rather than hollow.

Almost every Scaldicetus that I found in Bone Valley phosphate mines or in the Peace River are flattened/broken at the tip,  similar to this one from Harry.

 

There was another Scaldicetus juvenile (with tip) or posterior tooth found in the same Miocene location.

 

I will post a photo of the root area as soon as I get it.

 

54 minutes ago, Boesse said:

Another peculiarity is that the root, and crown, are expanded in the anteroposterior direction - in most delphinids, the root is expanded linguo-labially and anteroposteriorly flattened (to fit more teeth in the jaw).

 

I have few differentiators to determine Whale or Dolphin.  Thanks for this one.

 

 

 

[Shellseeker]

I have the tooth tip in hand... and I am unsure what to think. Good photos and measurements can alter an evaluation. The root, at least where it is broken is not hollow. I believe it not to be Croc or Gator.  The area I am hunting is primarily 10mya Miocene Marine, but that is not to say that layers above could not mix in a random fossil from another age.

Notifying the previous responders: @Darbi @pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon @Boesse of new photos.

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

Unfortunately, can't make much more of it than I did before, as to me this is marine mammal and hence not my area of expertise. I can only repeat what I said before: not a croc or gator tooth due to the lack of striations and carina (though the tooth crown does show some flattening that one might misinterpret as carina), as well as the tooth apparently having a solid base. However, I will refine my statement on the tooth being too massive as the tooth being to anteroposteriorly long. Crocodile teeth are round or semicircular in cross-section.

[Boesse]

Oh, there's little point in discussing a crocodilian affinity at this stage - this is definitely a cetacean tooth. It's just a bit weird, is all, and maybe pathologic. Unfortunately, there's often little chance of positively identifying isolated odontocete teeth given that the variation within a single dentition typically is greater than the differences between species.