New Members CaversFossils Posted December 30, 2020 New Members Share Posted December 30, 2020 (edited) This fossil(?) was found on the roof of a cave in the Renault or Ste. Genevieve Limestones in Kentucky. Mississipian period. I apologize for no scale. It is about 6 inches long I talked to some usgs fossil guys but they weren't sure. They thought it could be from an armored fish. It is unlike any fossil I've ever seen. I originally thought it was just chert, but on closer look, it appeared to have bilateral symmetry. It seems like whatever was in there was replaced by the chert. Although, I'm not really familiar with how fossils form. EDIT: the fossil was very much 3D. The part closest to my finger, facing perpendicular to the wall appears to be be concave. Edited December 30, 2020 by CaversFossils Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Trilo Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 I would say some sort of geologic wonder, it looks like there is still more in the rock but wow that is amazing “If fossils are not "boggling" your mind then you are simply not doing it right” -Ken (digit) "No fossil is garbage, it´s just not completely preserved” -Franz (FranzBernhard) "With hammer in hand, the open horizon of time, and dear friends by my side, what can we not accomplish together?" -Kane (Kane) "We are in a way conquering time, reuniting members of a long lost family" -Quincy (Opabinia Blues) "I loved reading the trip reports, I loved the sharing, I loved the educational aspect, I loved the humor. It felt like home. It still does" -Mike (Pagurus) “The best deal I ever got was getting accepted as a member on The Fossil Forum. Not only got an invaluable pool of knowledge, but gained a loving family as well.” -Doren (caldigger) "it really is nice, to visit the oasis that is TFF" -Tim (fossildude19) "Life's Good! -Adam (Tidgy's Dad) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted December 30, 2020 Share Posted December 30, 2020 I think that's a fossil. My first thought is skull cap, but it's just a first thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minnbuckeye Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 22 minutes ago, Rockwood said: skull cap Nice photos! I believe the cave is Mississippian in nature so skull unlikely. I thought he lost his other glove! Mike 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Trilo Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, minnbuckeye said: Nice photos! I believe the cave is Mississippian in nature so skull unlikely. I thought he lost his other glove! Mike That a very good chance “If fossils are not "boggling" your mind then you are simply not doing it right” -Ken (digit) "No fossil is garbage, it´s just not completely preserved” -Franz (FranzBernhard) "With hammer in hand, the open horizon of time, and dear friends by my side, what can we not accomplish together?" -Kane (Kane) "We are in a way conquering time, reuniting members of a long lost family" -Quincy (Opabinia Blues) "I loved reading the trip reports, I loved the sharing, I loved the educational aspect, I loved the humor. It felt like home. It still does" -Mike (Pagurus) “The best deal I ever got was getting accepted as a member on The Fossil Forum. Not only got an invaluable pool of knowledge, but gained a loving family as well.” -Doren (caldigger) "it really is nice, to visit the oasis that is TFF" -Tim (fossildude19) "Life's Good! -Adam (Tidgy's Dad) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Top Trilo Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 Is it hard like a rock? it folds over a piece on the right and on the bottom right there is a globe bubble thing “If fossils are not "boggling" your mind then you are simply not doing it right” -Ken (digit) "No fossil is garbage, it´s just not completely preserved” -Franz (FranzBernhard) "With hammer in hand, the open horizon of time, and dear friends by my side, what can we not accomplish together?" -Kane (Kane) "We are in a way conquering time, reuniting members of a long lost family" -Quincy (Opabinia Blues) "I loved reading the trip reports, I loved the sharing, I loved the educational aspect, I loved the humor. It felt like home. It still does" -Mike (Pagurus) “The best deal I ever got was getting accepted as a member on The Fossil Forum. Not only got an invaluable pool of knowledge, but gained a loving family as well.” -Doren (caldigger) "it really is nice, to visit the oasis that is TFF" -Tim (fossildude19) "Life's Good! -Adam (Tidgy's Dad) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earendil Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 (edited) So excited for the diagnosis here!!! I'll show the pictures to my geology tutor after break. Update: found an article that may help, or at least sheds some light on this: https://www.amnh.org/explore/news-blogs/news-posts/curious-collections-true-blue-fossils Edited December 31, 2020 by yardrockpaleo "Its webs of living gauze no more unfurl; Wrecked is the ship of pearl! And every chambered cell, Where its dim dreaming life was wont to dwell" -From The Chambered Nautilus by Oliver Wendell Holmes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 The researcher mentioned in the article is a Forum member: @Carl Don 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Members CaversFossils Posted December 31, 2020 Author New Members Share Posted December 31, 2020 It is hard as rock and has a glassy kind of appearance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DPS Ammonite Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 My educated good guess is that the blue is a mineral called vivianite. See this article about Mr. White’s body that turned blue. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.atlasobscura.com/articles/vivianite-blue-human-remains.amp 1 My goal is to leave no stone or fossil unturned. See my Arizona Paleontology Guide link The best single resource for Arizona paleontology anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kato Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 Anyone in the caving group happen to have a UV light on for finding minerals while the picture was being taken? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Members CaversFossils Posted December 31, 2020 Author New Members Share Posted December 31, 2020 We didn't have a UV light on hand. Also, ill add that I've never heard of vivianite, so that's interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 4 hours ago, minnbuckeye said: Nice photos! I believe the cave is Mississippian in nature so skull unlikely. I thought he lost his other glove! Mike Gee. I thought the age of fishes came before that. I'm pretty sure they have skulls, and I think they made it all the way through the carboniferous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilNerd Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 7 hours ago, Rockwood said: Gee. I thought the age of fishes came before that. I'm pretty sure they have skulls, and I think they made it all the way through the carboniferous. True, but from my research and hunting, of the local Mississippian fauna, fish are not typical. The local St. Genevieve fauna usually consists of coral, brachiopods, bryzoans, and the like. That's not to say that a fish couldn't be found dead amongst the corals, but it would be a rarer find. So to help clarify, and agree with, @minnbuckeye's statement... Fish were definitely alive and well during the Carboniferous (Mississippian), but are not well represented in the local St. Genevieve fauna. Therefore it is unlikely, although not impossible, to be a fish skull. A geological description for reference... STE. GENEVIEVE LIMESTONE USGS Unit Info: GEOLEX (id: Ste.Genevieve_3964) Primary Lithology: Limestone, dolomite, and shale Description: Limestone, dolomite, and shale: Limestone is light yellowish gray, weathers white to light gray; characteristically oolitic in beds 0.5 to 4.0 feet thick, massive; interbedded with about equal amounts of light-gray to light-brownish-gray sublithographic to medium-grained clastic limestone, locally shaly, cherty or pyritic; weathers to smooth rounded surfaces; one thin bed of limestone breccia or intraformational conglomerate fairly persistent near base, another less conspicuous with minor unconformity near top; one very thinly crossbedded zone of rounded sand-sized grains of detrital limestone in a limestone matrix. Dolomite is yellowish gray, very fine grained, massive; locally calcareous and contains fist-sized vugs filled with crystalline calcite. Silty clay shale is yellowish to greenish gray, locally calcareous. Fossils include Platycrinites sp., Lithostrotion (Siphonodendron) genevievensis Easton, horn corals, brachiopods, gastropods, crinoids, bryozoans, and trilobites. Persistent zone of echinoid spines and plates in oolitic limestone near base. Silicified oolitic limestone occurs in persistent zone about 30 feet above Lost River(?) Chert of Elrod (1899); weathers to pale-yellowish-orange fragments of ellipsoids and individual fossils. Soil cover is commonly as much as 30 feet thick. Also... To clarify more on Kentucky fish fossils... Fossils of fish have been found in Kentucky. However, the Devonian is more known for having larger bits of armored fish plates. The Pennsylvanian coal fields have yielded boney fish fossils. Other fish bits have been found throughout the various strata, including the Mississippian, but typical fish bits are shark teeth and spines. A large skull plate from the St. Genevieve would be a rare, and in my opinion, a scientifically important find. See link below for further general information. https://www.uky.edu/KGS/fossils/fossil-Pisces.php 5 The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it. -Neil deGrasse Tyson Everyone you will ever meet knows something you don't. -Bill Nye (The Science Guy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockwood Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 Dismissing long odds could be thought of as a bad habit though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrow Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 Looking for over the other areas of the limestone I think I see bilateral symmetry in this small inclusion above the hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Members CaversFossils Posted December 31, 2020 Author New Members Share Posted December 31, 2020 I didn't look at the rest of the ceiling, but i wouldn't be surprised if there were crinoids somewhere up there, although I'm not sure what that mark would be. This is about 10 feet off the floor (I am on top of a feature I had to climb on) so the ceiling has likely never been touched since it broke out years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earendil Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 I would recommend using a small blade to chip away some of the overhanging matrix. "Its webs of living gauze no more unfurl; Wrecked is the ship of pearl! And every chambered cell, Where its dim dreaming life was wont to dwell" -From The Chambered Nautilus by Oliver Wendell Holmes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Members CaversFossils Posted December 31, 2020 Author New Members Share Posted December 31, 2020 @yardrockpaleo Unfortunately I wouldn't feel comfortable messing with the fossil. Not only would I not want to personally, but it would be illegal under the Cave Protection Act 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpc Posted December 31, 2020 Share Posted December 31, 2020 37 minutes ago, CaversFossils said: Unfortunately I wouldn't feel comfortable messing with the fossil. Not only would I not want to personally, but it would be illegal under the Cave Protection Act wise choice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilNerd Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 8 hours ago, Rockwood said: Dismissing long odds could be thought of as a bad habit though. I wholeheartedly agree! Questioning the norm is how science evolves.I try to remember that once upon a time, the norm was to think the world was flat and the earth was the center of the universe. The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it. -Neil deGrasse Tyson Everyone you will ever meet knows something you don't. -Bill Nye (The Science Guy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caverat Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 I recommend you contact the Cave Research Foundation, Inc. via the internet. They are a respected cave research group and have members researching fossil shark remains in the Mammoth Cave system in Kentucky. They have agreements with several national parks with caves to do mapping and research. They could assist in possible identification. I've been a participant since the early 1960's. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earendil Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 Let us know when you figure it out. "Its webs of living gauze no more unfurl; Wrecked is the ship of pearl! And every chambered cell, Where its dim dreaming life was wont to dwell" -From The Chambered Nautilus by Oliver Wendell Holmes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New Members CaversFossils Posted January 1, 2021 Author New Members Share Posted January 1, 2021 I do know some of the CRF (cave research foundation) people. I didn't think to mention it to them. I personally know someone involved with the shark discovery stuff in Mammoth. Ill have to ask them, and I could take them to it pretty easily! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caverat Posted January 1, 2021 Share Posted January 1, 2021 OK! Good to know you are tied into serious caving and not doing "spelunking" Anyway, the CRF would be a great resource for your question. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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