Just Bob Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 Has anybody here used Elmer's Glue before to harden a fossil? Do you use a 50/50 solution with water? Does Elmer's glue leave your fossils sticky? I know paleo-bond works good but its expensive. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Eaton Posted February 14, 2010 Share Posted February 14, 2010 I've used it, 50/50 mix or so. I've also used Elmer's clear washable glue (maybe dries a bit clearer? I think there are some draw backs, perhaps primarily because the glue is rather acidic. One the plus side, it is non toxic, easy to use, relatively easy to remove. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted February 15, 2010 Author Share Posted February 15, 2010 I've used it, 50/50 mix or so. I've also used Elmer's clear washable glue (maybe dries a bit clearer? I think there are some draw backs, perhaps primarily because the glue is rather acidic. One the plus side, it is non toxic, easy to use, relatively easy to remove. How does it dry Tony? Sticky? I am thinking about using it on some bivalve mold cast. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordpiney Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 it dries hard and clear bob. thats what landman uses on the ammonite heaven specimens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erose Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 If the matrix soaks it up you might need several applications. Let each dry a bit in between. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shamalama Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 I use it for sandy pieces from Calvert Cliffs and any repairs that I do to a piece. I figure it is easier to remove the Elmer's glue if someone ever wants to do a "professional job". -Dave __________________________________________________ Geologists on the whole are inconsistent drivers. When a roadcut presents itself, they tend to lurch and weave. To them, the roadcut is a portal, a fragment of a regional story, a proscenium arch that leads their imaginations into the earth and through the surrounding terrain. - John McPheeIf I'm going to drive safely, I can't do geology. - John McPheeCheck out my Blog for more fossils I've found: http://viewsofthemahantango.blogspot.com/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted February 15, 2010 Share Posted February 15, 2010 Do a search of the Fossil Forum, Bob, for "preserving bone," and you'll find lots of information on glues and consolidants. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted February 15, 2010 Author Share Posted February 15, 2010 Thank you Harry I'll do that. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted February 15, 2010 Author Share Posted February 15, 2010 I looked but I didn't really much about glue. "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 I looked but I didn't really much about glue. Sorry, Bob . . . I gave you a bum steer. What you should search for is "preserving fossils," NOT "preserving bone." Here is a link to the thread which has loads of ideas. http://www.thefossilforum.com/index.php?showtopic=3629&hl=consolidant&st=0 http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielp Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 I just got through using a 50/50 mix of elmers carpenter glue and water on a pleistocene turtle shell. It turned out great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtdauber Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 I've used Elmer's glue to harden fossil bone, crabs, mollusks, etc. for several years with good results. I generally use a 1:5 glue to water mix, but one can use a thicker or thinner solution depending on how absorbent the fossil or matrix is. Always dries clear and hard. Have not had any problem with stickiness. George 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 I've used Elmer's glue to harden fossil bone, crabs, mollusks, etc. for several years with good results. I generally use a 1:5 glue to water mix, but one can use a thicker or thinner solution depending on how absorbent the fossil or matrix is. Always dries clear and hard. Have not had any problem with stickiness. George George, despite the ease of acquiring white glue and its non-toxic nature, it should be used only when necessary (e.g. a wet, crumbly fossil that can't be dried before consolidation). White glue does not come up to museum standards for typical consolidation jobs. It certainly does not come up to commercial standards. Sooner or later, you'll have to consolidate a fossil that has museum or commercial value (maybe your heirs will decide to sell your collection). I promise that white glue consolidation will diminish the value of your fossils at some point. The exception may be for those fossils which will never have any scientific or commercial value. Even then, you are betting that today's "junk" will not be a desireable collectible in 30 or 40 years. Sooo . . . I tell anyone who will listen: Do it right. Use the best consolidation plastic. Write good, complete labels soon after you collect a fossil. It will pay off in ways you can only vaguely anticipate now. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 (edited) George, despite the ease of acquiring white glue and its non-toxic nature, it should be used only when necessary (e.g. a wet, crumbly fossil that can't be dried before consolidation). Don't get me wrong - Elmer's White glue is a great stuff for glueing wood and can be also great for "hardening" crumbly fossils! But I fully agree with Harry's opinion (even so I am a polymer chemist and my job is to develop white glues and other latices....): I would never use a white glue unless the fossil is wet, crumbly and the substrate is porous and can't be dried before consilidation! There is no way to remove this white glue once dried (not even with solvent). It will form a dense polymer layer on the surface without penetrating much into the substrate (white glue are tiny polymer particles dispersed in water with a particle size of around 1µm, so the penetration depth won't be much). Butvar, a Polyvinyl butyrate (the company I am working in is also producing these polymers, of course different brand names) in this respect is much better (will penetrate better and can easily be removed by solvents). I do have a couple of fossil fish which were mistreated by someone else in such a way. Since the substrate was almost nonporous (diatomaceous earth!) and quite soft (and may be also the amount of white glue and concentration used was too high) there is now a thick slightly yellowish polymer film on top. Unfortunately, this is not all: The film shrinks and now peels off (with bones attached to the polymer film of course)! Thomas Edited February 16, 2010 by oilshale Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Thank you, 'oilshale'! http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grampa dino Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 If you have to use a white glue ie:Elmers I would try Weldbond instead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholas Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 Harry is definitely correct when he states that Elmer's or other paste like glues are not even close museum standards. To me it seems like a circumstantial material which is usually used in haste in the place of one of the more typical more refined methods. I've used it many times on fossils which were just far too unstable to do anything else with, or let dry. The range of success with it seems variable at best, sometimes you get a hard seal which looks quite professional, other times you can just turn out with a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted February 16, 2010 Share Posted February 16, 2010 ok, i suppose i'll reluctantly jump in on this. i've used a proprietary white-glue formula, the name of which starts with a vowel, for consolidation of large, wet fragile specimens. the main beef i have with proprietary, "secret" formulations is not that they aren't good, but that they aren't known, and therefore can't be analyzed regarding their relative properties and reversability, which is a big deal. but on the premise that the "main ingredient" might be a pva emulsion, i've used it, diluted with water. you can make a large batch fast and fairly inexpensively and it isn't lethal to work with, to my knowledge. i figure the fossil's already wet and will be harmed if allowed to dry out whilst unconsolidated. so i've bought a big container with a lid, put the magic milk in it, put the fossil submerged in it, put the lid on, and do the jeopardy theme for a day or whatever. doing the deal that way, in my feeble mind, means that penetration is assisted by capillary action, depending on the porosity of the specimen, and only limited by time and the molecular size of the polymer, which of course is an issue but every year that passes means less success needed for the specimens to outlast me, if not their labels, which i don't add. mine is an ephemeral world, and yours is too, whether you'll admit it or not. but bone dry stuff would probably get a dunk in acetoned pvb or pva any time it wasn't already reminiscent of chalcedony, unless i didn't respect it as worthy of that degree of hassle, in which case i'd probably just put it on a shelf in tj's room and forget it, having transferred responsibility for its future to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtdauber Posted February 17, 2010 Share Posted February 17, 2010 Thank you, 'oilshale'! I appreciate the info. Harry and Oilshale. Seems that I need to change my method. Thanks much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Bob Posted February 19, 2010 Author Share Posted February 19, 2010 (edited) Thank you everybody for your Info. One of the reasons that I wanted to use Elmer's glue is that (besides I have a big bottle of it in the garage) its cheap. Unless you tell me that there is something out there that is just as cheap or close in price and is way better, I have to stick with Elmer's. One thing that I notice is that people are making references to using glue on wet fragile fossils. Do they have to be wet to use glue on them? Can they be dry and fragile? I have a couple of shell cast molds that are dry and intact, but they are very fragile and I was thinking about using the glue mixture on them. I actually thought that the glue would penetrate the mold, but according to Oilshale the particle size of glue is to big to do that. But I suppose it is better then nothing, that is unless someone comes up with a cheap and better way. Edited January 9, 2013 by Just Bob "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it." Upton Sinclair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tracer Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 wetting dry, fragile stuff can make it crumble more when it dries again. as far as cost goes, a whole lot depends on how much you use of it. a pound of pva beads and a can of acetone isn't a huge amount of money, but if you preserve stuff all the time, it would cost you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grampa dino Posted February 19, 2010 Share Posted February 19, 2010 In most cases just have an so called non professional removing a fossil from the ground will diminish the scientific value of a fossil along with the commercial value to some degree. In any case I to would use the best materials at hand. Ask your self why do I collect fossil, for resale or for study. Even the museums try different ideas that do not always work. Why not just ask your locale museum to see what they would say. It could be interesting. You only learn by your mistakes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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