pleecan Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 (edited) Hi: Has any one heard of or is familiar with ZOIC Scientific , Italy? They prep their Lebonon fish fossils that end up mounted in resin. Not familiar with this process.... Pro or Cons on this method of fossil prep ... this is all new to me. PL Edited February 20, 2010 by pleecan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I saw that and wondered too... I can think of two possibilities; either they are being prepped the way the Messel oil shale fossils are (from the "back" side, bedded in resin), or they are composites (much more likely in my mind). "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paleozoicfish Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I saw that and wondered too... I can think of two possibilities; either they are being prepped the way the Messel oil shale fossils are (from the "back" side, bedded in resin), or they are composites (much more likely in my mind). They are real. -PzF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I agree with Auspex - this fossil was prepped with the "transfer method". This is an often used a common method to prep fossils in soft matrix and is the common method to prep fossils from Messel. I tried to explain the methon in another thread. Quote: "1. Remove the oil shale from one side so that you can see the complete fossil. 2. Pour polyester resin (epoxy resin is also possible) on top. A glass fiber mat will increase the stability. Let the resin harden for some hours. The bones and even delicate structures like feathers, fur and so on will stick on the resin. 3. Turn the fossil upside down and remove the rest of the oil shale. Sounds easy, but you will need some experience to handle this method. So don't test it on your best fossil. All the Messel fossils in my album are prepped in the same way (a couple of fish, the bats (with preserved ears), the small horse, the large rodent with fur and the small rat like insectivore also with some visible fur. And there are two other bird in this album: Rhynchaeites messelense (sort of Ibis) and the more common wading bird Messelornis christata. This method is also good to prepp other fossils with delicate and soft bones if the matrix is not too porous. For example the fish Ctenurella gladbachensis from the Devonian of Bergisch Gladbach is prepped in the same way." Lebanon or Solnhofen fossils can be prepped this way, but I prefer to glue slab and counterslab together and prep the fossil "from the top". Thomas Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sharks Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 As I understand this, the matrix is removed completely, from both sides of the fossil, and resin left holding the fossil in place. What is the advantage to this vs. leaving the fossil in the matrix and prepped from one side? If the matrix is soft, couldn't you just reinforce the back side? This just seems like a lot of work to me, and I don't see a benefit. Please let me know what I'm missing There's no limit to what you can accomplish when you're supposed to be doing something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 (edited) oil shale contains almost 40% water! Oil shale will shrink and crack once the water is gone. This will happen on a sunny day within an hour. You cant't preserve the fossil with the substrate still attached. Before the transfer method, people had to keep the fossils in glycerine or glycol for several month to completely exchange the water by a non volatile liquid. This is a link where you can see fresh oil shale. But if you take a closer look, you can already see cracks and warping. Within a couple of hours, it's gone to pieces. http://de.academic.ru/pictures/dewiki/71/Grube_Messel_fg08.jpg I've got the feeling that Zoic uses acid to remove the calcitic substrate. Thomas Edited February 20, 2010 by oilshale Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oilshale Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 (edited) As I understand this, the matrix is removed completely, from both sides of the fossil, and resin left holding the fossil in place. What is the advantage to this vs. leaving the fossil in the matrix and prepped from one side? If the matrix is soft, couldn't you just reinforce the back side? This just seems like a lot of work to me, and I don't see a benefit. Please let me know what I'm missing Northern Sharks, you are right, it's a lot of work. At least with Solnhofen material; not so much with Messel material - the shale is very soft and can be removed by a toothbrush. If you - for scientific reasons - want to see the unsplit bones, you have to do it this way. This Propalaeotherium, a dawn horse, and this Diplocynodon, a small alligator, are a good examples what a skilled person can achieve by this method. Thomas Edited February 20, 2010 by oilshale Be not ashamed of mistakes and thus make them crimes (Confucius, 551 BC - 479 BC). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Sharks Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Thanks for the info There's no limit to what you can accomplish when you're supposed to be doing something else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Pristis Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I am very pleased with my Amia from Messel prepared on resin. http://pristis.wix.com/the-demijohn-page What seest thou else In the dark backward and abysm of time? ---Shakespeare, The Tempest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Smilodon Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 I saw that and wondered too... I can think of two possibilities; either they are being prepped the way the Messel oil shale fossils are (from the "back" side, bedded in resin), or they are composites (much more likely in my mind). Chas, did you see this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ZOIC-ODONTOPTERYX-topliaca-toothed-bird-fossil_W0QQitemZ110495016098QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19ba0424a2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Auspex Posted February 20, 2010 Share Posted February 20, 2010 Chas, did you see this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ZOIC-ODONTOPTERYX-topliaca-toothed-bird-fossil_W0QQitemZ110495016098QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item19ba0424a2 Sure did; thanks for thinking of me! I'd buy it, if I didn't already have this, from the same place: BTW, it is misidentified; the "teeth" on Odontopteryx point forward. "There has been an alarming increase in the number of things I know nothing about." - Ashleigh Ellwood Brilliant “Try to learn something about everything and everything about something.” - Thomas Henry Huxley >Paleontology is an evolving science. >May your wonders never cease! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted February 20, 2010 Author Share Posted February 20, 2010 Thanks every one for your replies ! ... extremely intensive labour in the methodology of fossil prep. PL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
old dead things Posted February 21, 2010 Share Posted February 21, 2010 Sometimes on the edges of the pads in the Green River formation are very soft and we use this method. I tried it for the first time this past summer. I kind of got mixed results. The fish came out okay, but is still very fragile, I am almost afraid to prep it. One thing not mentioned in the posts, is that it still needs to be cut out of the matrix before attempting to pull it up. (or maybe I missed someone saying that) I am tempted to leave it as it is and hope I don't have to do it again. Jim Old Dead Things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pleecan Posted February 22, 2010 Author Share Posted February 22, 2010 Thanks for posting Jim... I am going to let other experts do this kind of prep.... too labor intensive and requires great skills and a steady hand. PL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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