Kem Kem vertebra

[DenverEdge]

Looking for help on id for this vertebra from The Kem Kem beds. It is 1 inch x 1.2 inch x 1.2 inch. Feels exceptionally light at 13.8 grams sounds hollow you can hear sediment rattle inside. Unfortunately it appears fairly damaged on one side.

 

Side 1:

 

Bottom:

 

side 2:

 

top:

 

Front end?

 

back end?

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

Looks to me to be a theropod vertebra. But I by no means have experience with dinosaurs, and only limited experience with Kem Kem material in general, so it could still be a crocodile...

 

Hopefully @Troodon, @LordTrilobite and @Haravex will come by and be able to tell you what it is...

[DenverEdge]

2 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Looks to me to be a theropod vertebra. But I by no means have experience with dinosaurs, and only limited experience with Kem Kem material in general, so it could still be a crocodile...

 

Hopefully @Troodon, @LordTrilobite and @Haravex will come by and be able to tell you what it is...

Thanks for your input and tags. And thanks for the thumbs up on the tylosaurus tooth as well. 

It looks very similar to some small theropod vertebra I have seen myself. Let’s see what others have to say.

 

[LordTrilobite]

It's a reptile caudal vertebra centrum. The attachment points for the chevrons are visible. Probably anterior to mid caudal.
While this one is very small, and I don't have any direct reference... It looks similar to adult spinosaur anterior caudals. So there's a possibility that it's that.

[Troodon]

I'll just say its a caudal of a reptile.  What throws me off is the deep convex end and the roundness of the centrum on one side while the other is difficult to determine   

[DenverEdge]

20 hours ago, LordTrilobite said:

It's a reptile caudal vertebra centrum. The attachment points for the chevrons are visible. Probably anterior to mid caudal.
While this one is very small, and I don't have any direct reference... It looks similar to adult spinosaur anterior caudals. So there's a possibility that it's that.

 

16 hours ago, Troodon said:

I'll just say its a caudal of a reptile.  What throws me off is the deep convex end and the roundness of the centrum on one side while the other is difficult to determine   

So by reptile dinosaur would be included as a possibility you are saying? And the strong curvature from one end of the centrum to the to other (I’m still trying to learn all the correct terms) looked similar to raptor vertebrae I have seen from different locations combined with the apparent lightness and hollowness made me think there is a good chance it could be a small theropod but I didn’t jump to conclusions.

 

I was also thinking possible pterosaur just based on the lightness but I haven’t seen any of their vertebrae that look similar to this.

 

Would any additional pictures of a specific section or angle possibly help?

 

Also I was trying to see where to chevrons attach to I didn’t even know they actually were attached to the vertebrae.

Edited October 26, 2021 by DenverEdge

[LordTrilobite]

While it seems likely that there are indeed raptors/dromaeosaurs present in the Kem Kem beds. Their remains are very rare. So that would be less likely.
Yes, reptile would include dinosaurs. But also other types. We say this because there's not enough information to go off of. So it's better to be less specific. Most likely it's theropod or croc. But which one? That might have to be a mystery for now. Although cleaning the vertebra could potentially help with an ID.

[Troodon]

Centrums (central body of a vertebra) are tough to diagnose because the diagnostic features the spines are missing. This was posted a while back and shows the different types of vertebrae

 

 

 

Chevron location

Typically the ventral (bottom) side of a vertebrae has relatively smooth flowing ends.  On most caudals, may not be on the ones close to the hip, you can see on that one side is sharp and the other has a lip.  That's the connection to the chevron and points to the posterior side (toward the tail) of the vertebra.

 

 

Weight does not contribute to a diagnose of any bones just reflects preservation...Its all about how it looks.   The configuration of the ends  being round, square or rectangular, convex, flat or concave helps in the identification process.  Here are a couple of topics to browse to help your understanding of these fossils. 

 

 

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

Here's another, more abstracted version, of the schematic Frank posted above (source). In general these terms are used to describe vertebral morphology, which may, but does not always, match certain animal clades...

 

As chevrons are only found in the tail of animals, finding their attachment sites, the hemapohyses, is a sure indication of the vertebra deriving from the caudal region of the organism. You'll typically find the attachment sites for the chevrons at the very edge of the centrum, since they're often positioned in between of sequential vertebrae - though I'm glad that they're a bit more recognizable in marine reptiles than in your specimen!

[DenverEdge]

10 hours ago, LordTrilobite said:

While it seems likely that there are indeed raptors/dromaeosaurs present in the Kem Kem beds. Their remains are very rare. So that would be less likely.
Yes, reptile would include dinosaurs. But also other types. We say this because there's not enough information to go off of. So it's better to be less specific. Most likely it's theropod or croc. But which one? That might have to be a mystery for now. Although cleaning the vertebra could potentially help with an ID.

I was making sure. And I am nervous on cleaning this one i feel my usual tequiniques with dental picks. I’ll need be super careful.

 

5 hours ago, Troodon said:

Centrums (central body of a vertebra) are tough to diagnose because the diagnostic features the spines are missing. This was posted a while back and shows the different types of vertebrae

 

 

 

Chevron location

Typically the ventral (bottom) side of a vertebrae has relatively smooth flowing ends.  On most caudals, may not be on the ones close to the hip, you can see on that one side is sharp and the other has a lip.  That's the connection to the chevron and points to the posterior side (toward the tail) of the vertebra.

 

 

Weight does not contribute to a diagnose of any bones just reflects preservation...Its all about how it looks.   The configuration of the ends  being round, square or rectangular, convex, flat or concave helps in the identification process.  Here are a couple of topics to browse to help your understanding of these fossils. 

 

 

Interesting I was going off what I know about my favorite dinosaur allosaurus. Here is a screenshot of what I’m talking about.

 

But you say weight has to do with fossilization so I guess you mean because of the fossilization process could effects the weight too much to use it as an I’d? I figured it meant it had large air sacs in it. 
 

And thanks for circling my picture for the chevron location that really helps.

 

(I hope I don’t come off as argumentative I’m only trying to learn as much as possible)

5 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

Here's another, more abstracted version, of the schematic Frank posted above (source). In general these terms are used to describe vertebral morphology, which may, but does not always, match certain animal clades...

 

As chevrons are only found in the tail of animals, finding their attachment sites, the hemapohyses, is a sure indication of the vertebra deriving from the caudal region of the organism. You'll typically find the attachment sites for the chevrons at the very edge of the centrum, since they're often positioned in between of sequential vertebrae - though I'm glad that they're a bit more recognizable in marine reptiles than in your specimen!

And thanks to you as well. I agree working with phosphate marine reptile pieces is much easier than this kem kem stuff just in general. But I also have spent hundreds of hours prepping ouled zem material so maybe that’s why. 
 

 

Thanks again everyone for taking the time to help me. Even though we didn’t get an id on this all the additional information you gives have given me is really helpful so I appreciate it.

[Troodon]

50 minutes ago, DenverEdge said:

But you say weight has to do with fossilization so I guess you mean because of the fossilization process could effects the weight too much to use it as an I’d? I figured it meant it had large air sacs in it. 

Correct.

Theropods verterbra are more pneumatic but in the end its the  morphology (shape) that determines what it is.   I can shown you similar hadrosaur verts that have different weights one is just better preserved that the other

[DenverEdge]

34 minutes ago, Troodon said:

Correct.

Theropods verterbra are more pneumatic but in the end its the  morphology (shape) that determines what it is.   I can shown you similar hadrosaur verts that have different weights one is just better preserved that the other

Makes perfect sense thank you. 
 

If I ever decide to clean this piece up I will post some addition pictures. For now I will label it as Indeterminate reptile vertebrae. 
 

When I mentioned Allosaurus I should have just included this picture of some on display at dinosaur ridge 20 minutes away from me. They are actually really good examples you can touch, next time I go there I’ll get some good close ups and make a post.

[Troodon]

Nice vert string