Vectis formation fossils

[Notidanodon]

Hi guys, got some fossils from yaverland and whale chine, IOW they are berriasian vectis formation, and I was wondering if you could help me identify them  

1. croc or ichthyosaur tooth?

2. hybodont spine, is a species I’d possible? 

3. fish spine?

4. pterosaur tooth

[RuMert]

I'd say a plesiosaur tooth with those ridges, but let's see what others think

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

14 minutes ago, RuMert said:

I'd say a plesiosaur tooth with those ridges, but let's see what others think

 

I'll up you one on the first tooth by saying it's a pliosaur. The ornamentation of the tooth is not rounded and regularly spaced enough to be ichthyosaur, and apart from one apicobasal ridge visible in the second photograph, there don't seem to be any candidates for carinae. Moreover, if this were a crocodile tooth, you'd likely expect to see some lateral compression around what would be the carinae, but this tooth appears perfectly conical. With the age being Cretaceous, that'd make the traditional classification of this tooth brachauchenine. Awesome find! Where-ever did you manage to pick this up?

 

Your second item does appear to be a shark-fin spine, though as this is not my speciality, I wouldn't be able to tell you much more than that...

 

Third could be pterosaur, as I believe some do have striations, but again not my strength. This is more like @FF7_Yuffie's territory

[Notidanodon]

1 hour ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

I'll up you one on the first tooth by saying it's a pliosaur. The ornamentation of the tooth is not rounded and regularly spaced enough to be ichthyosaur, and apart from one apicobasal ridge visible in the second photograph, there don't seem to be any candidates for carinae. Moreover, if this were a crocodile tooth, you'd likely expect to see some lateral compression around what would be the carinae, but this tooth appears perfectly conical. With the age being Cretaceous, that'd make the traditional classification of this tooth brachauchenine. Awesome find! Where-ever did you manage to pick this up?

 

Your second item does appear to be a shark-fin spine, though as this is not my speciality, I wouldn't be able to tell you much more than that...

 

Third could be pterosaur, as I believe some do have striations, but again not my strength. This is more like @FF7_Yuffie's territory

Thankyou so much once again for your help  thats very exciting to hear, these were the best pieces i found on my summer trip to the isle of wight, ive just had them prepped this month so I will definitely be entering that pliosaur tooth to FOTM

[jpc]

I will down bid the ID on the first one... does not look like any cretaceous croc tooth I know of. 

 

Nice stuff.  Are these self-collected?

 

 

[Notidanodon]

2 minutes ago, jpc said:

I will down bid the ID on the first one... does not look like any cretaceous croc tooth I know of. 

 

Nice stuff.  Are these self-collected?

 

 

Thanks  yes i found these myself

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

2 minutes ago, jpc said:

I will down bid the ID on the first one... does not look like any cretaceous croc tooth I know of.

 

I agree, hence my suggestion of it being a pliosaur tooth

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

11 minutes ago, will stevenson said:

thats very exciting to hear, these were the best pieces i found on my summer trip to the isle of wight, ive just had them prepped this month [...]

 

I thought I had gotten lucky when I found my plesiosaur tooth at Vaches Noires in France this summer, but, boy, these being personal finds, I'd say you hit the jackpot!

[Notidanodon]

2 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

I thought I had gotten lucky when I found my plesiosaur tooth at Vaches Noires in France this summer, but, boy, these being personal finds, I'd say you hit the jackpot!

Nothing like spending 3 days bashing rocks, you know i did it for so long i may actually have gained some muscle by the end of it  yes i was very lucky haha, but you would be surprised how fossiliferous this one particular bed is, Seeing as it underlies the wessex formation, everyone focuses on that for the dinosaur remains, so the vectis is normally ignored despite producing more fossils imo! Is that tooth your profile picture?   I have spent some time dissolving samples, and every 10 cm^3 of rock tends to produce 3-7 small teeth, mostly lonchidion or vectiselachos, i will post them at some point once i have my microscope set up  

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

4 minutes ago, will stevenson said:

Nothing like spending 3 days bashing rocks, you know i did it for so long i may actually have gained some muscle by the end of it  yes i was very lucky haha, but you would be surprised how fossiliferous this one particular bed is, Seeing as it underlies the wessex formation, everyone focuses on that for the dinosaur remains, so the vectis is normally ignored despite producing more fossils imo! Is that tooth your profile picture?   I have spent some time dissolving samples, and every 10 cm^3 of rock tends to produce 3-7 small teeth, mostly lonchidion or vectiselachos, i will post them at some point once i have my microscope set up  

 

Yeah, that's the tooth. I tried entering it in the FotM contest back then. But since I found it towards the very end of the month and I wanted to get it out of its matrix to have a better look at it and rule out the small chance of it being marine crocodile, I didn't manage to put it up before the month was over - and removing it from it's matrix was, unfortunately, not deemed significant enough preparation... I still intend to post it more properly if I ever get around to writing a trip report for that week, but in the meantime I thought it'd make a good profile picture

 

Still, if you found all of that in three days, I'd say you did good, even if you had to bash a lot of rocks for it. My work was may be less strenuous, as I got my fossils from marl (which was good, as I had my four year old son and six months old daughter with me), but it's the only vertebrate remains I got for seven days of searching May be I should return to IoW sometime. It's been a while, and if the Vectis is indeed so productive (especially with marine rather than terrestrial reptiles, which I've lost interest in since my last visit) it may be a better return-of-investment for me than the French coast

[Notidanodon]

3 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

Yeah, that's the tooth. I tried entering it in the FotM contest back then. But since I found it towards the very end of the month and I wanted to get it out of its matrix to have a better look at it and rule out the small chance of it being marine crocodile, I didn't manage to put it up before the month was over - and removing it from it's matrix was, unfortunately, not deemed significant enough preparation... I still intend to post it more properly if I ever get around to writing a trip report for that week, but in the meantime I thought it'd make a good profile picture

 

Still, if you found all of that in three days, I'd say you did good, even if you had to bash a lot of rocks for it. My work was may be less strenuous, as I got my fossils from marl (which was good, as I had my four year old son and six months old daughter with me), but it's the only vertebrate remains I got for seven days of searching May be I should return to IoW sometime. It's been a while, and if the Vectis is indeed so productive (especially with marine rather than terrestrial reptiles, which I've lost interest in since my last visit) it may be a better return-of-investment for me than the French coast

Its a very nice one either way by the looks of things  thats a shame, i had something similiar with a pterosaur tooth i found on the same trip haha,

Yes it was a remarkeably productive trip, my main interest is the sharks, but i wouldnt say no to some lovely marine vertebrates of any kind haha. I did find some decent dinosaur stuff as well on my visit, i was very lucky considering it was summer and not much erosion had occured! 7 days! wow thats some serious searching, i would say worth it though   If you ever think of coming across the channel let me know and ill see if i can arrange something with you, im going for round 2 this summer  

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

2 minutes ago, will stevenson said:

Its a very nice one either way by the looks of things  thats a shame, i had something similiar with a pterosaur tooth i found on the same trip haha,

Yes it was a remarkeably productive trip, my main interest is the sharks, but i wouldnt say no to some lovely marine vertebrates of any kind haha. I did find some decent dinosaur stuff as well on my visit, i was very lucky considering it was summer and not much erosion had occured! 7 days! wow thats some serious searching, i would say worth it though   If you ever think of coming across the channel let me know and ill see if i can arrange something with you, im going for round 2 this summer  

 

Thanks!

 

Your story keeps getting better and better, though...! Dinosaur material too! Wow! I did find some too last time we were over on IoW (including a nice bit of pterosaur bone and a small ornithopod footprint), but this was years ago, before our son was born, and in November, which wasn't the best time for Yaverland, as it was completely covered up with sand. Now we're tied to school holidays, can't make things too rough for the kids yet, and have had other holiday priorities (we both come from different countries and live in a third, so basically a lot of yearly holiday time always goes towards family visits). From that perspective, I consider myself lucky that I've had one week a year for the past two years in which I've been able to search for fossils And, yes, even if I've only managed to find one piece of marine reptile remains each of these summers, the hunt, just being out on the beach going through rocks, is already totally worth it. It's where I'm happiest

 

But if I ever find myself coming across again, I'll definitely let you know First is probably going to be Folkestone, though. We've got some friends in Kent who've lived there for years now, but who we've never visited. With Folkestone being relatively close-by, I thought I might combine it - may be even this year

[FF7_Yuffie]

I am not sure if its pterosaur. I don't see many pterosaur teeth from there--they are rare. But the ones I have seen are quite straight and only have very faint striations at the base. 

 

 

[FF7_Yuffie]

I am not sure if its pterosaur. I don't see many pterosaur teeth from there--they are rare. But the ones I have seen are quite straight and only have very faint striations at the base. 

 

 

[FF7_Yuffie]

I am not sure if its pterosaur. I don't see many pterosaur teeth from there--they are rare. But the ones I have seen are quite straight and only have very faint striations at the base. 

 

 

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

13 minutes ago, FF7_Yuffie said:

I am not sure if its pterosaur. I don't see many pterosaur teeth from there--they are rare. But the ones I have seen are quite straight and only have very faint striations at the base.

 

Yeah, same here. While pterosaurs aren't really my thing, this tooth didn't really look like a pterosaur one to me. Not quite sure what to make of it, though. The two options that come to mind, however, are crocodile and leptocleidia (ancestor of polycotylids). For this tooth to be crocodile, though, I'd expect it to have carinae, which, unfortunately, I'm not able to make out in the photographs. This, the spacing of the striations, and the fact that they terminate before reaching the tooth apex suggests this may be a leptocleidid plesiosaur tooth rather than a pterosaur...

[Notidanodon]

On 1/21/2022 at 12:53 AM, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

Thanks!

 

Your story keeps getting better and better, though...! Dinosaur material too! Wow! I did find some too last time we were over on IoW (including a nice bit of pterosaur bone and a small ornithopod footprint), but this was years ago, before our son was born, and in November, which wasn't the best time for Yaverland, as it was completely covered up with sand. Now we're tied to school holidays, can't make things too rough for the kids yet, and have had other holiday priorities (we both come from different countries and live in a third, so basically a lot of yearly holiday time always goes towards family visits). From that perspective, I consider myself lucky that I've had one week a year for the past two years in which I've been able to search for fossils And, yes, even if I've only managed to find one piece of marine reptile remains each of these summers, the hunt, just being out on the beach going through rocks, is already totally worth it. It's where I'm happiest

 

But if I ever find myself coming across again, I'll definitely let you know First is probably going to be Folkestone, though. We've got some friends in Kent who've lived there for years now, but who we've never visited. With Folkestone being relatively close-by, I thought I might combine it - may be even this year

Yes haha it was probably my favourite trip ever, I was just walking back along the beach after hammering away all day and looked down to find a Dino tooth! I also found quite a lot of crocodile teeth and a nice chunk of lepidotes! 
yes I don’t get to go out much myself, but just for the reason I can’t drive so I have to beg my parents to take me to some random beach

your time in france still does sound awesome! I bet if you took some of that rock home and processed it you could make some very cool micro finds!

it’s criminal but I’ve never been to Folkestone but please let me know as I would love to tag along  

Edited January 22, 2022 by will stevenson

[Notidanodon]

20 hours ago, FF7_Yuffie said:

I am not sure if its pterosaur. I don't see many pterosaur teeth from there--they are rare. But the ones I have seen are quite straight and only have very faint striations at the base. 

 

 

I have one to show you later that I’m fairly sure is pterosaur  thanks for your help

 

19 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

Yeah, same here. While pterosaurs aren't really my thing, this tooth didn't really look like a pterosaur one to me. Not quite sure what to make of it, though. The two options that come to mind, however, are crocodile and leptocleidia (ancestor of polycotylids). For this tooth to be crocodile, though, I'd expect it to have carinae, which, unfortunately, I'm not able to make out in the photographs. This, the spacing of the striations, and the fact that they terminate before reaching the tooth apex suggests this may be a leptocleidid plesiosaur tooth rather than a pterosaur...

i don’t see any carinae either so shall I label leptocleidid plesiosaur then ?  thanks once again for your help 

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

2 hours ago, will stevenson said:

Yes haha it was probably my favourite trip ever, I was just walking back along the beach after hammering away all day and looked down to find a Dino tooth! I also found quite a lot of crocodile teeth and a nice chunk of lepidotes!

 

Wow! I'm truly impressed! I've now been to IoW twice - once as a kid with my parents (so I know all about the having to been to be driven anywhere ) and once as a young adult with my wife - and didn't find anything at all the first time around (I'd have come home empty handed if it hadn't been for the very generous gift from another collector coming off of the beach), and found only small bone fragments on my second visit. Soon you telling me all this makes me believe I must have been doing something terribly wrong! 

 

2 hours ago, will stevenson said:

your time in france still does sound awesome! I bet if you took some of that rock home and processed it you could make some very cool micro finds!

 

It was! I'm always happiest when I'm fossil hunting the cliffs, and my wife even said she could see me glow  Quite the difference from the drudge of daily life! Now if only I could find the time to properly prepare what I brought back... 

(I did actually bring back two last pieces of marl replete with shells that would, I think, have potential for discoveries beyond the currently visible - but, as said, I lack the time to clean those pieces up)

 

2 hours ago, will stevenson said:

it’s criminal but I’ve never been to Folkestone but please let me know as I would love to tag along  

 

Sure thing! Our friends will likely also tag along (I know both him and her from my studies in archaeology), and I wouldn't quite know where to go yet (apart from the descriptions I've found), but it'd be fun to discover that together 

 

2 hours ago, will stevenson said:

i don’t see any carinae either so shall I label leptocleidid plesiosaur then ?  thanks once again for your help 

 

I think so. Both pliosaurs and leptocleidids have been recovered from the Vectis Formation (see, for example, Benson, Ketchum, Naish and Turner's 2011 description of Vectocleidus pastorum), so it's certainly possible. But may be you could post a photograph of your suspected pterosaur tooth for comparison, to rule thay out, so to speak? I'm a bit hesitant in my identification as it seems crazily lucky to have found both a pliosaur and leptocleidid in one trip!

[Notidanodon]

@pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon @FF7_Yuffie

here is the tooth In question

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

3 hours ago, will stevenson said:

@pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon @FF7_Yuffie

here is the tooth In question

 

Beautiful piece, but always hard to say with such small specimens, as it's hard to make out the true nature of the ornamentation. I've got a very similar tooth from the Hastings Beds, albeit with less obvious ornamentation, that the seller identified as a leptocleidid. While I believe this seller has a lot of experience in his local area and is very knowledgeable on these matters, it's proven difficult to confirm or deny his claim. The only other leptocleidid teeth I've seen are Russian, but much younger and bear stronger striations. As such, this tooth looks leptocleidid to me too. But let's see if either @FF7_Yuffie or @msantix have anything to add about the potential pterosaur nature of the specimen...

 

Below are some photographs of my leptocleidid specimen: second and third images are under microscope magnification.

 

 

 

Leptocleidid plesiosaur tooth, Wadhurst Clay Formation, Valanginian age

Edited January 22, 2022 by pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon

[Notidanodon]

6 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

Wow! I'm truly impressed! I've now been to IoW twice - once as a kid with my parents (so I know all about the having to been to be driven anywhere ) and once as a young adult with my wife - and didn't find anything at all the first time around (I'd have come home empty handed if it hadn't been for the very generous gift from another collector coming off of the beach), and found only small bone fragments on my second visit. Soon you telling me all this makes me believe I must have been doing something terribly wrong! 

 

 

It was! I'm always happiest when I'm fossil hunting the cliffs, and my wife even said she could see me glow  Quite the difference from the drudge of daily life! Now if only I could find the time to properly prepare what I brought back... 

(I did actually bring back two last pieces of marl replete with shells that would, I think, have potential for discoveries beyond the currently visible - but, as said, I lack the time to clean those pieces up)

 

 

Sure thing! Our friends will likely also tag along (I know both him and her from my studies in archaeology), and I wouldn't quite know where to go yet (apart from the descriptions I've found), but it'd be fun to discover that together 

 

 

I think so. Both pliosaurs and leptocleidids have been recovered from the Vectis Formation (see, for example, Benson, Ketchum, Naish and Turner's 2011 description of Vectocleidus pastorum), so it's certainly possible. But may be you could post a photograph of your suspected pterosaur tooth for comparison, to rule thay out, so to speak? I'm a bit hesitant in my identification as it seems crazily lucky to have found both a pliosaur and leptocleidid in one trip!

The first day i went to yaverland i only found bone fragments and the very next day, looking in the same way i found 4 teeth! its a matter of luck really   an experienced collector i met there said she didnt find a tooth every time, though at that time she did have a huge croc tooth 

Its true that fossil hunting is a nice break from normal life haha, do let me know what you find when you investigate those blocks, now i have a microscope, i will be doing a lot more investigating of micro matrix

Sounds great to me! theres a decent guide online, and i have an experienced friend who may be able to come along and show us how to collect the different beds   

Thanyou for the link, i will give that paper a good read. Yes i was crazy lucky  i found that third tooth on the same trip as well haha

53 minutes ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said:

 

Beautiful piece, but always hard to say with such small specimens, as it's hard to make out the true nature of the ornamentation. I've got a very similar tooth from the Hastings Beds, albeit with less ornamentation, that the seller sold as a leptocleidid. While I believe the seller has a lot of experience in his local area and is very knowledgeable on these matters, it's proven difficult to confirm or deny his claim. The only other leptocleidid teeth I've seen are Russian, but much younger. As such, this tooth looks leptocleidid to me too. But let's see if either @FF7_Yuffie or @msantix have anything to add about the potential pterosaur nature of the specimen...

Its about 2cm, i will try to get some better pics  it is slightly crushed as it was preserved right on the edge of the bed, so that could make things difficult, i look forward to hearing what everyone else has to say, thanks once again

[pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon]

On 1/20/2022 at 9:44 PM, will stevenson said:

they are berriasian vectis formation

 

I only just noticed this presumed mistake in your dating of the Vectis Formation, which to the best of my knowledge is Lower Aptian in age - thus I think you meant to say barremian rather than berriasian This brings your finds a lot closer in age to the other leptocleidid teeth I've seen, namely those from Shatsk Quarry (see here) and would place your probable leptocleidid tooth right in between my specimen and the examples known from Shatsk...

[RuMert]

3 minutes ago, will stevenson said:

The first day i went to yaverland i only found bone fragments and the very next day, looking in the same way i found 4 teeth!

Looking forward to read a full-pledged trip report

[Notidanodon]

17 minutes ago, RuMert said:

Looking forward to read a full-pledged trip report

i did post a part of it during the summer