sjaak Posted May 7, 2022 Share Posted May 7, 2022 Sad indeed. This only applies to Normandy right? I think consequences are predictable: law cannot be maintained as police have better things to do, but important fossils will not reported to science. Opposite effect. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted May 7, 2022 Author Share Posted May 7, 2022 From what I've seen over the past few years, the field of palaeontology, whether amateur or professional, is an absolute mess here, with both amateurs and professionals being in outright competition, not just with each other but also amongst themselves; bureaucratic hindrances; mismanagement of resources; a general unwillingness to compromise; and lack of funding for protection. Ego and self-interest have indeed led to dubious practises and aggression, to a disregard for the rules, and consequently resistance from landowners. Long years of unchecked freedom with selfish, uncompromising.and uncooperative collection practises (including cases of what, if I get my stories right, I can only describe as abuse), have thus led to opposition - and now this utterly destructive law. Yet, ironically, the very university palaeontologists that are proposing these new restrictions in various parts of the country are also guided by the same attitude, making their proposal very hypocritical. Of course all of this is just my impression of the situation, my personal opinion, but based, in part, on my experiences here, in another on what others have told me... 4 hours ago, Jared C said: would a popular petition have much of an effect in France? What else could one do? I don't know whether French government would be sensitive to such a thing. I'd half expect they wouldn't, but I could, of course, be completely wrong. Going on strike and organising big public protests seems to be the way to get things done over here But I like the idea, as well as that of a manifestation/large scale protest, actually... When Germany progressed changing its rules with respect to collecting (of pretty much anything as far as I could tell) a couple of years back, a large-scale petition did succeed in changing the government's ideas. Yet, a petition or protest concerning Vaches Noires would need to be initiated by a French national, preferably even by a local, I feel, as, while we may be able and allowed to express our opinions and support as foreigners and non-locals, in the end, it's not our coastline we're taking about, and not our place as guests to demand things... 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taj Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 On 5/7/2022 at 1:50 AM, Jared C said: Drives me mad to see backwards regulations like that, I feel for you guys over at the other side of the pond. Anyone on this forum probably has had this thought already, but to rant to the wind, laws that outright ban collecting for the sake of "conserving fossils" are doing exactly the opposite of fossil conservation. Nature's grindstone is merciless, and any surface fossil not picked up by a collector or academic is doomed to erode away into nothingness. Erosion is not a hard concept to grasp, this shouldn't be a shock to any common person, let alone a "panel of experts". I wonder what would be the efficacy of petitioning... would a popular petition have much of an effect in France? What else could one do? Not a single chance in the world . This is french administration : they could not care less about people or even clubs . It's a (blind,deaf) juggernaut. Only escape hatch would be some political leverage , and this is a good time ,but unfortunately the numbers don't add up (contrary to hunters who have a very effective lobby) 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taj Posted May 8, 2022 Share Posted May 8, 2022 (edited) On 5/7/2022 at 4:25 AM, sjaak said: Sad indeed. This only applies to Normandy right? I think consequences are predictable: law cannot be maintained as police have better things to do, but important fossils will not reported to science. Opposite effect. only Calvados side of the seaside . But they are working on the interior and the other side of the Seine river Edited May 8, 2022 by taj 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted May 9, 2022 Author Share Posted May 9, 2022 18 hours ago, taj said: Not a single chance in the world . This is french administration : they could not care less about people or even clubs . It's a (blind,deaf) juggernaut. Only escape hatch would be some political leverage , and this is a good time ,but unfortunately the numbers don't add up (contrary to hunters who have a very effective lobby) Speaking of political lobbies, wouldn't the tourism lobby have significant influence in the area? I mean, sure, there's plenty of regular beach goers there. But there's also a significant group of people who come there and buy or rent places there purely to go fossil hunting... That's an economic interest. And where there's an economic interest, there's bound to be a political representative of that interest... 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taj Posted May 9, 2022 Share Posted May 9, 2022 Agree. And I will be the first to vote with my feet once the ban is enacted . But has it been quantified enough to put some stress on people who rely on tourism for a living ? not sure ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted May 10, 2022 Author Share Posted May 10, 2022 9 hours ago, taj said: Agree. And I will be the first to vote with my feet once the ban is enacted . But has it been quantified enough to put some stress on people who rely on tourism for a living ? not sure ... I doubt it. My guess is that loss of tourism due to fossil hunters leaving the region will not be a concern until the economic effects thereof are felt. By then it'll be too late, though. But if the dip in the local economy is big enough, this may trigger a lobby to undo the law against collection. I think that, realistically speaking, is the best-case scenario we should hope for... 1 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taj Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 SO details are starting to trickle out ... They will hire 2-3 people , swear them in , and let them loose on the beach . Fine will be 750euros . I guess we can say 1000$ . Of course these guys will understand that their job survival will rely on how much money they bring back ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted May 13, 2022 Author Share Posted May 13, 2022 1 hour ago, taj said: SO details are starting to trickle out ... They will hire 2-3 people , swear them in , and let them loose on the beach . Fine will be 750euros . I guess we can say 1000$ . Of course these guys will understand that their job survival will rely on how much money they bring back ... That seems unusually serious/harsh for French standards! They're really taking this thing seriously, huh? The big question is, of course, would they also fine people walking their dog and happening to pick up an interesting looking stone? In a hardly imagine that being the case, as this is something that's completely normal behaviour even on non-fossiliferous beaches But if they don't fine dog-walkers, maybe I should apply for this position. With daily exposure to the beaches, you're assured to stumble upon an interesting rock (read: fossil) sooner or later 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 Sometimes I despise academics. Which is akward as I am an academic (just not a card-carrying paleontologist). Don 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FossilDAWG Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 Here is a silly idea. People should pick up every battered echinoid, ammonite, or oyster. Bring it to the University, and insist that under the law they have to make room for it in their collections. Just bury them under fossil fragments and common specimens until they relent and allow people to collect scientifically unimportant material. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taj Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 5 hours ago, pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon said: That seems unusually serious/harsh for French standards! They're really taking this thing seriously, huh? The big question is, of course, would they also fine people walking their dog and happening to pick up an interesting looking stone? In a hardly imagine that being the case, as this is something that's completely normal behaviour even on non-fossiliferous beaches But if they don't fine dog-walkers, maybe I should apply for this position. With daily exposure to the beaches, you're assured to stumble upon an interesting rock (read: fossil) sooner or later Think further : they have no money to hire people to comb the beach to collect fossils before they are destroyed , but they have money to hire people to give fines to collectors doing just that . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted May 13, 2022 Author Share Posted May 13, 2022 1 hour ago, taj said: Think further : they have no money to hire people to comb the beach to collect fossils before they are destroyed , but they have money to hire people to give fines to collectors doing just that . I think they're probably hoping to pay them from the fines they expect to collect - at least, that, to a large extent, is how the Dutch police is supposed to keep itself funded. Result there: zero-tolerance and fines for the most ridiculous misdemeanors But yeah it is surprising - unless entirely not thought through - since something like this can never be self-funded, unless you indeed fine every dog-walker for even kicking a stone out of place 5 hours ago, FossilDAWG said: Sometimes I despise academics. Which is akward as I am an academic (just not a card-carrying paleontologist). Yeah, that's mainly why I didn't pursue a career as an academic archaeologist: the level of hypocrisy in academia can be unbelievable! 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast Posted May 13, 2022 Share Posted May 13, 2022 They should employ a palaeontologist at the beach to assess what is collected and decide if it is important. That way 90+% will be free to keep their fossils, the important ones will be saved and a palaeontologist gets paid. Everybody wins. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted May 14, 2022 Author Share Posted May 14, 2022 7 hours ago, westcoast said: They should employ a palaeontologist at the beach to assess what is collected and decide if it is important. That way 90+% will be free to keep their fossils, the important ones will be saved and a palaeontologist gets paid. Everybody wins. That's actually pretty much how the system works (or, at least, is supposed to, according to the law - but, German members, please correct me if I'm wrong) in Germany, where the state, and by extension and state-mandate, quarry owners are in charge of determining what constitutes a significant find... 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taj Posted May 18, 2022 Share Posted May 18, 2022 On 5/13/2022 at 7:16 PM, westcoast said: They should employ a palaeontologist at the beach to assess what is collected and decide if it is important. That way 90+% will be free to keep their fossils, the important ones will be saved and a palaeontologist gets paid. Everybody wins. There is a big paleontological museum nearby ,mostly devoted to the VN. It is maybe 2 km far from the beach , as the crow flies. The paleontologist in residence there has been one of the main expert consulted by the DREAL to come up with this stupid project..... So in short ,he's one of the guys behind the total ban idea.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westcoast Posted May 18, 2022 Share Posted May 18, 2022 3 hours ago, taj said: There is a big paleontological museum nearby ,mostly devoted to the VN. It is maybe 2 km far from the beach , as the crow flies. The paleontologist in residence there has been one of the main expert consulted by the DREAL to come up with this stupid project..... So in short ,he's one of the guys behind the total ban idea.... Interesting. I do not know this location at all but if the rate of collection is higher than the rate of natural replenishment due to erosion then maybe there is a concern that there will be nothing for anybody to find. Perhaps commercial collectors are taking too much. i don't know, but the balance between conservation and other demands can be difficult to balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted May 18, 2022 Author Share Posted May 18, 2022 2 hours ago, westcoast said: Interesting. I do not know this location at all but if the rate of collection is higher than the rate of natural replenishment due to erosion then maybe there is a concern that there will be nothing for anybody to find. Perhaps commercial collectors are taking too much. i don't know, but the balance between conservation and other demands can be difficult to balance. I don't think this logic holds any sense... The site is a coastal one, so has a relatively high erosion rate, with people not being allowed to collect straight from the cliffs or rock substrate. In other words, it's okay to collect loose specimens, but not to hammer into solid rock. This keeps collection rates down, as you're dependant on natural erosion to replenish the fossils you are allowed to collect. Much of the coastline is bordered by secondarily deposited colluvium, however, from which, as I understand it, it would also be okay to collect (not bedrock). Most finds are invertebrates - Gryphaea, Actinostreon, Myophorella, Trigonia, bivalves, brachiopods, crinoids, echinoids and ammonites - but you may also find some poorly preserved crab remains (if you know what to look out for) and vertebrate remains (like my tooth, or marine reptile remains), if you're lucky. You can even find some ultra-rare dinosaur remains, and I believe the occasional Pleistocene mammal is also found in certain spots. Still, the overwhelming amount of fossils are invertebrate, with most one-time hunters being out for pyritised ammonites. As the spot is right next to beach side towns where people go to swim and sunbathe, there's quite a high density of collectors, whether more serious ones or those that just want to try their luck at finding a "golden" ammonite. Notwithstanding, there's often plenty to be found (if you aren't after vertebrate remains). I'm not sure if any commercial collection is going on at the site, as I've never heard of any material from the site being sold, whether through open channels or through private (French) networks - that is, with the exception of the infrequently offered rather dime-a-dozen Gryphaea dilatata. As such, I doubt this would be a serious problem either. Nor do I think the local authorities would be concerned about there not being enough material for collectors to find, as their proposal would prohibit collectors taking anything at all - in other words, collectors would simply be banned, rather than local authorities wanting to conserve the site so that more collectors would be attracted... 6 hours ago, taj said: There is a big paleontological museum nearby ,mostly devoted to the VN. It is maybe 2 km far from the beach , as the crow flies. The paleontologist in residence there has been one of the main expert consulted by the DREAL to come up with this stupid project..... So in short ,he's one of the guys behind the total ban idea.... That sounds completely stupid and counter-intuitive...! If the site stops attracting fossil hunters, most of whom I'd say would at one time or another have visited the museum, if not be recurring guests, who is the museum targetting? Are they trying to become the only place where fossils from the site can be admired? It sounds so weird considering that in other places exactly museums try to engage in public outreach programs. And this one is just shutting down all dialogue?!? Again, so different from sites along the Jurassic Coast... Now that I think of it, though, one major difference with something like the Jurassic Coast is likely the fact that there's no open commercial trade in fossils from the site and, as such, no interest group that can both show commercial and hobby collecting can go hand-in-hand with site conservation, as well as defend the rights of collectors 1 1 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taj Posted May 23, 2022 Share Posted May 23, 2022 On 5/18/2022 at 1:17 AM, westcoast said: Interesting. I do not know this location at all but if the rate of collection is higher than the rate of natural replenishment due to erosion then maybe there is a concern that there will be nothing for anybody to find. Perhaps commercial collectors are taking too much. i don't know, but the balance between conservation and other demands can be difficult to balance. That's not the issue here . The rate of natural replenishment is very high and probably much higher than any collection rate. There is no notable commercial collection .The issue is that collecting is only allowed today on the public marine domain, as Pachy said, which is a pretty high energy system .So if you are lucky , it's one tide to uncover the fossil , one tide to loosen it from the substrate, and one tide to break it into pieces . So at most one day and a half to 2 days before the fossil is destroyed . Nothing to conserve here . Conservation is certainly not part of any sane rationale here . 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pachy-pleuro-whatnot-odon Posted August 29, 2022 Author Share Posted August 29, 2022 I've come across a petition to temper these plans. I highly urge those concerned with or about the current situation to sign it. 'There's nothing like millions of years of really frustrating trial and error to give a species moral fibre and, in some cases, backbone' -- Terry Pratchett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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