Peace River - multiple IDs needed

[Meganeura]

So was out hunting yesterday - and I will definitely be making a trip report because I came away with a ridiculous number of amazing finds. But before that - I need ids!

So to start off -

 

1) Found a massive astragalus. 2.5”/64mm. Matches Equus, but these astragalii I found a while ago were IDd as Equus and they are about half the size:

 

One from yesterday:

 

So is the new one Equus and my old ones are 3-toed? 
 

2) Found a symphysis from some mammal. It’s still got the incisor roots, and an unerupted canine, but I can’t see the canine well enough to figure it out. Diagnostically though - it’s got part of the left mandible, showcasing the roots and sockets of the closest premolar (and one socket from the next) - and based on the distance I think it’s okay to eliminate herbivore (Or deer, horse, camel/llama, etc) due to knowing they have long snouts. So… carnivore? Any ideas what, if so?

 

Measures 50mm/1.95” long and 30mm/1.2” wide.

3) Finally - pretty sure this is the tip of a Dire wolf canine, given root hole shape, the single carinae, lack of striations, etc - but I’d love confirmation or another ID.

 

@Shellseeker @Harry Pristis @Brandy Cole Thanks all in advance!

[Shellseeker]

48 minutes ago, Meganeura said:

2) Found a symphysis from some mammal. It’s still got the incisor roots, and an unerupted canine, but I can’t see the canine well enough to figure it out. Diagnostically though - it’s got part of the left mandible, showcasing the roots and sockets of the closest premolar (and one socket from the next) - and based on the distance I think it’s okay to eliminate herbivore (Or deer, horse, camel/llama, etc) due to knowing they have long snouts. So… carnivore? Any ideas what, if so?

 

Measures 50mm/1.95” long and 30mm/1.2” wide.

Just measured the bottom of my symphysis... 2.5 inches wide... This is a small animal,  maybe juvenile.

I have some Dire wolf broken teeth.... Very similar and indicative of predator in my experience...

Good thread because it should generate a discussion of what broken predator canines look like....

[Meganeura]

4 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Just measured the bottom of my symphysis... 2.5 inches wide... This is a small animal,  maybe juvenile.

I have some Dire wolf broken teeth.... Very similar and indicative of predator in my experience...

Good thread because it should generate a discussion of what broken predator canines look like....

Definitely a small animal on the symphysis - I was thinking bobcat or coyote or something along those lines. Too big to be racooon/opossum, but too small to be anything large. Based on the unerupted canine though I was wondering towards a possible juvenile dire wolf or something.

 

and agreed - I know how hard canines are to ID when complete, I imagine just the tip is even harder. Certainly too small to be bear, though. 

[Nimravis]

Great finds Daniel.

[Meganeura]

Just now, Nimravis said:

Great finds Daniel.

Just wait till the trip report!

 

[Shellseeker]

For Comparison   Jaguar...

 

Unknown... but I think cat,  and Nate wanted it....

 

Just working on the concept that predator teeth have small open cores

[Meganeura]

3 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

For Comparison   Jaguar...

 

Unknown... but I think cat,  and Nate wanted it....

 

Just working on the concept that predator teeth have small open cores

I definitely would agree with that concept from what I've seen myself. Don't have too many examples - but this tooth matches. I can certainly eliminate most big cats though, I know the canines they have are much more blade-like, even the lowers. Dire wolf, Panthera onca, Panthera atrox are essentially my options, unless I'm missing another.

[Fin Lover]

17 minutes ago, Meganeura said:

Just wait till the trip report!

 

Maybe someone can finally get FOTM started for February.  

[Meganeura]

1 minute ago, Fin Lover said:

Maybe someone can finally get FOTM started for February.  

Well I'm going back out saturday, so after that I'll figure out what I want to post for FOTM... 

[Meganeura]

Also doing some further research - seems my 2 smaller horse astragalii are in fact tridactyl - the grey one is 1.2 inches, the white is 1.1 inch, so that's pretty cool. Somehow managed to have all 3 of my first 3 astragalii be tridactyl, and only found an Equus one now. 

[Meganeura]

1 hour ago, Shellseeker said:

 

Just working on the concept that predator teeth have small open cores

So going off this concept, would it be fair to say the symphysis is carnivorous too? Seems to match the shape of canids quite well from what I can tell. Not felids, that's for sure. Too big to be coyote, though. 

[Shellseeker]

52 minutes ago, Meganeura said:

So going off this concept, would it be fair to say the symphysis is carnivorous too? Seems to match the shape of canids quite well from what I can tell. Not felids, that's for sure. Too big to be coyote, though. 

What "age" are you thinking , Daniel....

Quote

The dire wolf lived in the Americas and eastern Asia during the Late Pleistocene and Early Holocene epochs (125,000–9,500 years ago).

The wolves in Florida prior to the Dire wolf  were smaller..

[Meganeura]

1 minute ago, Shellseeker said:

What "age" are you thinking , Daniel....

The wolves in Florida prior to the Dire wolf  were smaller..

I’m thinking juvenile due to the unerupted canine - which would lead me to larger size for an adult. Which seems like dire wolf would fit for. Pleistocene makes sense anyway - all the other finds were Pleistocene. 

[Harry Pristis]

4 hours ago, Meganeura said:

2) Found a symphysis from some mammal. It’s still got the incisor roots, and an unerupted canine, but I can’t see the canine well enough to figure it out. Diagnostically though - it’s got part of the left mandible, showcasing the roots and sockets of the closest premolar (and one socket from the next) - and based on the distance I think it’s okay to eliminate herbivore (Or deer, horse, camel/llama, etc) due to knowing they have long snouts. So… carnivore? Any ideas what, if so?

 

Measures 50mm/1.95” long and 30mm/1.2” wide.

I think this symphysis is from a pig, Sus scrofa.

[Meganeura]

5 minutes ago, Harry Pristis said:

I think this symphysis is from a pig, Sus scrofa.

Could it be peccary then? It's definitely fossilized - I did the burn test and it didn't burn at all. 

[Meganeura]

2 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

I think this symphysis is from a pig, Sus scrofa.

So both Hulbert and @Done Drillin thought the same - but the burn test resulted in no burning/etc. Hulbert said the Peccary - Prosthennops serus is known from the late Miocene, and is likely to be that due to the size!

[Meganeura]

1 hour ago, Meganeura said:

So both Hulbert and @Done Drillin thought the same - but the burn test resulted in no burning/etc. Hulbert said the Peccary - Prosthennops serus is known from the late Miocene, and is likely to be that due to the size!

Nope, scratch that - Hulbert pulled up a pic and the P. serus symphysis is narrower and longer. I re-did the burn test... it's definitely fossilized. So yeah, that's interesting enough. Too big to be other peccaries, though. 

[Harry Pristis]

A feral pig symphysis, phosphatized, judging by the color.

[Brandy Cole]

Daniel, here are the dimensions from one of my equus astragali compared to my only pre-equus example.

 

Then I included another equus.

[Brandy Cole]

I think your smaller astragali may still be within the size range of a juvenile equus.

[Meganeura]

7 hours ago, Brandy Cole said:

I think your smaller astragali may still be within the size range of a juvenile equus.

Seems some tridactyl horses have astragali that cap out at ~1.4 inches or so, so looks like it could go either way. Well, the white one is definitely tridactyl then, it came from a majority miocene location (Bone Valley Fossil Farm) - no Equus fossils have ever been found there, only tridactyl. 

[Shellseeker]

Daniel, So much for my theory on what the inside of a broken predator tooth looks like. Both the incisors and premolar on this jaw look about the same as broken teeth in my Dire Wolf jaw (above)....

 

 

[Shellseeker]

14 hours ago, Harry Pristis said:

A feral pig symphysis, phosphatized, judging by the color.

Harry,

A new terminology for me.

Quote

Wikipedia....

Phosphatic fossilization^{[definition needed]} has occurred in unusual circumstances to preserve some extremely high-resolution microfossils in which careful preparation can even reveal preserved cellular structures. Such microscopic fossils are only visible under the scanning electron microscope.

Mechanism

Large quantities of phosphate are required, either from seawater or from the tissues of the decaying organism. In some cases microbes control the phosphatization, and the remains of the microbes that fed on the preserved tissue form the fossil. In other, the tissue itself is the source of phosphate and its phosphatized remains form the fossil. In the intermediate case the phosphatized tissue retains the impressions of the phosphatizing microbes.^[1]

Do you have other examples of Phosphatic fossils from Florida, so that I might recognize them?

[Meganeura]

14 minutes ago, Shellseeker said:

Harry,

A new terminology for me.

Do you have other examples of Phosphatic fossils from Florida, so that I might recognize them?

New for me as well! I wonder how much faster the process is.

[Family Fun]

I just love how much I learn reading all of this, now if I could only retain a small portion I’d be very happy.  
 

I appreciate the views and perspectives from all of posts. This forum is truly blessed to have so many willing to give there expertise, knowledge and time.