Devonian Fossil fish or maybe not Devonian

[Bobby Rico]

Hi all 

I purchased this little fish (15cms ) for a bargain of £12. It is from Caithness in Scotland. I think is possible Gyroptychius but I am really in the deep water were it comes to fish. So any help will be much appreciated.

 

cheers Bobby 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Bobby Rico

[Kane]

Nice snag, Bobby! Let me tag @jdp and @Fossildude19 who are our fishy experts par excellence.

[Fossildude19]

Bobby had already messaged me about this fish.
Unfortunately, I am not well versed in the Devonian fish as I am in the younger fishes.

I haven't any ideas on this one, regrettably.

[Rockwood]

1 hour ago, Bobby Rico said:

Gyroptychius

Gyroptychius, Osteolepis, and Thursius appear to be identified largely by their dorsal fins and tail. 

[ziggycardon]

Hi Bobby, are you sure it is from Scotland?
I looks an awfull lot like Paramblypterus from the Permian of Germany.
Nice fish btw!

 

[Misha]

6 minutes ago, ziggycardon said:

Hi Bobby, are you sure it is from Scotland?
I looks an awfull lot like Paramblypterus from the Permian of Germany.
Nice fish btw!

 

My first thought as well, the scales on this specimen don't really look like the Devonian Osteolepids I've seen from Scotland

[ziggycardon]

2 minutes ago, Misha said:

My first thought as well, the scales on this specimen don't really look like the Devonian Osteolepids I've seen from Scotland

Indeed, same with the tailfin which perfectly matches with those of Paramblypterus specimens

[Bobby Rico]

27 minutes ago, ziggycardon said:

Hi Bobby, are you sure it is from Scotland?
I looks an awfull lot like Paramblypterus from the Permian of Germany.
Nice fish btw!

 

I can’t be sure but every other fossil they was selling had the correct IDs and they sold this fish as unidentified specimen and did not try to guess at it. All their fossil was from the U.K. To me this indicates the location information is probably correct.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Bobby Rico

[Fossildude19]

Hmm. Could it be something like Cheirolepis trailli? 

I think that is the only actinopterygian known from there.

[Bobby Rico]

6 minutes ago, Fossildude19 said:

Hmm. Could it be something like Cheirolepis trailli?

Cheers Tim I check that out. 

[Misha]

Cheirolepis has very fine squamation I believe, I don't think this could be that

[oilshale]

Sorry Bobby, I forgot to answer you.  I don't think Cheirolepis - the head shape seems too pointed to me.
I honestly don't think the fish is from the Devonian of Caithness - rather from a Carboniferous or Permian site (more like Palaeoniscus).

Also, the rock seems to me too finely layered and not dark enough for Caithness

Edited April 16, 2023 by oilshale

[Bobby Rico]

Thanks everyone much appreciated. It was a punt at £12 maybe the location is wrong so making very difficult for an ID . At least I know it waa a fish. 

[Yoda]

12 hours ago, oilshale said:

I honestly don't think the fish is from the Devonian of Caithness - rather from a Carboniferous or Permian site (more like Palaeoniscus).

Also, the rock seems to me too finely layered and not dark enough for Caithness

I agree. Not Caithness. 

Have seen similar preservation before. Will have a look in my books this evening. 

 

[doushantuo]

Bobby,

This is certainly NOT an attempt at an ID, because I haven't done the proper research, but I find it slightly reminiscent of Fouldenia.

Once more, with feeling : NOT an ID, nor is the one below:

Woodenichthys, not based on anything,  just trying to provide pointers.

 

[TqB]

I agree it looks like a Permian Marl Slate fish typical of Co. Durham in the UK, quite likely Palaeoniscus as suggested on another forum.

[Bobby Rico]

I have just visited the dark side another forum SORRY TFF and they believe Palaeoniscus Permian Marl Slate Co. Durham in the UK. I don’t know?

[Bobby Rico]

It looks like Tarquin dropped me in it Anyway 

[jdp]

Definitely not any of the Devonian material. also definitely not Paramblypterus. Palaeoniscum could be correct. Not sure if it's German or British; there are plenty of Upper Rotliegend-aged deposits in the UK which preserve this animal as well (e.g. the Marl Shale in County Durham), so it could well be Scottish, though not from Caithness.

[Bobby Rico]

Thanks all I really appreciated your help. I think it can be labelled with question marks as possible . I don’t know fish I just like them and at the price of less than a fish n chips  supper it was worth the gamble.  Cheers Bobby 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Bobby Rico

[Bobby Rico]

Sorry for wasting any more you’re time on this cheap as chips fish.  The sun was out and the light was good, so I got my Macro lens out and got some ok details from this specimen. I don’t know if it helps as I am clueless here. Thanks again for your time Bobby. @ziggycardon @oilshale @Misha @doushantuo @TqB @Yoda @jdp and Tim I know you said it’s not your era in fish but I thought your like pics anyway.  
@Fossildude19

 

 

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these scales are by 4 and 5

Edited April 18, 2023 by Bobby Rico

[ziggycardon]

I agree with some previous comments on it probably being a Palaeoniscid fish after having a better look at the scales.
A fine aqcuisitions, you definiatly got yourself a nice deal on that one, a lot rarer than most devonian fish from Caithness.

[jdp]

There's probably more tail under the rock if you trust yourself to prep into it.

[Bobby Rico]

7 hours ago, jdp said:

There's probably more tail under the rock if you trust yourself to prep into it.

Thanks I got pin vice and good magnifying glasses so I could give it a go . Cheers Bobby 

[Bobby Rico]

7 hours ago, ziggycardon said:

Palaeoniscid fish after having a better look at the scales.
A fine aqcuisitions, you definiatly got yourself a nice deal on that one, a lot rarer than most devonian fish from Caithness.

Thanks mate much appreciated. Nice to get a bargain. Cheers Bobby