Niger theropod claw ID

[JorisVV]

Is anyone able to actually ID a claw like this? It is 9CM straight. Footclaw or handclaw even? 

 

Niger claw as you can see. And I am aware there is not that much information to ID a claw. But this one is pretty much complete.

Edited May 6, 2023 by JorisVV

[Joseph Fossil]

@JorisVV That's a pretty nice fossil theropod hand claw. The most similar matches I could find are Spinosaurus aegyptiacus or Suchomimus!!

[Joseph Fossil]

@JorisVV Do you know what formation this fossil claw came from in Niger? It it could help me more accurately determine the Theropod species this claw belonged to!!!

[JorisVV]

27 minutes ago, Joseph Fossil said:

@JorisVV Do you know what formation this fossil claw came from in Niger? It it could help me more accurately determine the Theropod species this claw belonged to!!!

 

Gadoufaoua, Elhraz Fm.

[JohnJ]

Can you get better focused images and views?

[Troodon]

See my comments below that I've put into my Niger ID tooth topic, it should also be applicable here : 

 

Before I discuss the identification of teeth from the Republic of Niger I would like to raise the red flag on material from this region.   A late 2022 publication ( Yohan POCHAT-COTTILLOUX et al.), Microvertebrate fauna from Gadoufaoua, highlighted a concern I was not previously aware of.   The deposits in this area are adjacent to each other as these illustrations show.  This why the deposits from Gadoufaoua are probably more appropriately identified as the Tegama and Irhazer Group.   A research group that conducted the study is clearly aware of the deposits but how local diggers can they determine if a tooth comes from the Jurassic Irhazer Shale or Tiourarén Fm or can they distinguish between the Cretaceous the Echkar or Elrhaz Fm is beyond me.  Can they even distinguish between Jurassic and Cretaceous deposits.  Material then is consolidated with a local person who, identifies it and then probably distributes the material to sellers.  Bottom line, I not sure how accurate the provenance of this material is when offered for sale.   I would be very cautious with the purchase of this material since a Gadoufaoua can describe many different deposits.

 

[Troodon]

I'm not aware of any claws being described from Niger, like the Kem Kem most are mysteries.  We have this image of the holotype of Suchomimus that you can look at,  Digit II and III claws are real.  Not sure it's an exact match.   You still have a BIG issue with provenance

 

 

[JorisVV]

1 minute ago, Troodon said:

I'm not aware of any claws being described from Niger.  We have this image of the holotype of Suchomimus that you can look at,  Digit II and III claws are real.  You still have an issue with provenance

 

 

Yes and I am afraid i am not getting any provence. And this is why i normally avoid claws from Niger as they are not able to be identified correctly and with certainty. 

 

Everything you come across is being labaled as a suchomimus.

In my opinion, an expensive claw like i posted, doesnt hold a big value if you can not ID it, which I find important for my collection.

[Troodon]

51 minutes ago, JorisVV said:

In my opinion, an expensive claw like i posted, doesnt hold a big value if you can not ID it, which I find important for my collectio

 

You can say the same for an expensive Spinosaurid hand claw, since it's not described.   I personally don't care if its not identifiable since most theropod claws can be difficult to ID.  What's more important is a solid locality, then there is always an opportunity it will be described and identified.   Something that cannot be done with a lot of Niger material. 

[JorisVV]

9 hours ago, Troodon said:

 

You can say the same for an expensive Spinosaurid hand claw, since it's not described.   I personally don't care if its not identifiable since most theropod claws can be difficult to ID.  What's more important is a solid locality, then there is always an opportunity it will be described and identified.   Something that cannot be done with a lot of Niger material. 

Yes that is true. But the claw i mentioned in the first place, how can you even be sure it is a spinosauridae. That goes back with all the mixing of localities.

[Phos_01]

1 hour ago, JorisVV said:

how can you even be sure it is a spinosauridae

We can not know for sure. But at this point we know Suchomimus lived at this region , a Spinosaurid species . Its likely to be one of this kind. 

For me personally I think this is a cool piece. Its expensive, but nice for any Dinosaur collector. But indeed I would try to get as much info possible as to were it has been found exactly.

[Troodon]

I saw this posted, it's true and I agree..checkout the last comment.

 

 

[JorisVV]

8 minutes ago, Troodon said:

I saw this posted, it's true and I agree..checkout the last comment.

 

 

Agree with both you and @Phos_01. I am trying to get any locality out of it. 

 

Cf. Spinosauridae

Cf. Baryonychinae (maybe suchomimus sp.) But depends on being more clear on the location).

[Troodon]

And your certain its one of those ? Why?  Without a locality/ formation it's unknown what age they are from.  Could be Jurassic for all we know.

How do you get a more specific locality when the map I showed above has all of the deposits everything adjacent to each other?

[Phos_01]

20 minutes ago, Troodon said:

And your certain its one of those ? Why? 

Certain you cannot be in my opinion, what other Theropods are labeled before to this date, coming from this area? Afrovenator, Rugops, 

Perhaps it was a juvenile Suchomimus, We can see its a real claw , that is something good to see nowadays. 

 

Not so long they labeled Anzu Wyliei as Tyrannosaurus I believe , allot is still to be discovered and properly labeled for the African dinosaurs, id really wish they would put more research into it. Its a fantastic deposits in my opinion with so much more to be discovered 

 

 

[Troodon]

25 minutes ago, Phos_01 said:

Certain you cannot be in my opinion, what other Theropods are labeled before to this date, coming from this area? Afrovenator, Rugops, 

Perhaps it was a juvenile Suchomimus, We can see its a real claw , that is something good to see nowadays. 

 

Not so long they labeled Anzu Wyliei as Tyrannosaurus I believe , allot is still to be discovered and properly labeled for the African dinosaurs, id really wish they would put more research into it. Its a fantastic deposits in my opinion with so much more to be discovered 

 

 

What date? You do not know the deposit and without that everything is a guess.

With Anzu you knew exactly where it came from and could make a determination of what it was

[JorisVV]

Update: @Troodon @Phos_01

 

The seller gave me its locality.

 

Aderbissinat, Agadez

[Troodon]

My point all along...IF and I want to repeat that IF that's accurate it's then one of the Jurassic formations in the Irhazer Group, either Irhazer Shale or younger Tiourarén Fm.   Why buying fossils from Niger is a locality nightmare.  What do you believe?  Can you trust any information that is provided!

[JorisVV]

7 minutes ago, Troodon said:

My point all along...IF and I want to repeat that IF that's accurate it's then one of the Jurassic formations in the Irhazer Group, either Irhazer Shale or younger Tiourarén Fm.   Why buying fossils from Niger is a locality nightmare.  What do you believe?  Can you trust any information that is provided!

It is a trustworthy person. And if you go that way, most of your teeth you bought could have been from different locations as well. Everyone's teeth here. 

 

I have given you everything:

 

Claw size: 9CM

Ctry: Niger

Formation: Tiouraren Formation

locality: Aderbissinat, Agadez.

 

I am aware Afrovenator, perhaps other Megalosaurids and ceratosaurids have been present at that time and location.

 

 

[Troodon]

How do you know from the Tiourarén Fm, the Irhazer Shale is inter-mixed in that deposit why the deposits are called Irhazer Group.  Most sellers are trustworthy but they are collecting with locals in Niger that sell their finds to others before it gets to your seller.  Your kidding yourself it's not like most other areas where deposits are more defined and identifiable. 

[JorisVV]

7 minutes ago, Troodon said:

How do you know from the Tiourarén Fm, the Irhazer Shale is inter-mixed in that deposit why the deposits are called Irhazer Group.  Most sellers are trustworthy but they are collecting with locals in Niger that sell their finds to others before it gets to your seller.  Your kidding yourself it's not like most other areas where deposits are more defined and identifiable. 

Do you not have a page based with the exact same locality and age. If you can not be certain a 100% for those as well? 

[Troodon]

6 minutes ago, JorisVV said:

Do you not have a page based with the exact same locality and age. If you can not be certain a 100% for those as well? 

I have changed my topic to include a header with a disclaimer.

Also the Tiourarén information provided was based on a published paper that paleontologists were involved in the collection.

[JorisVV]

2 minutes ago, Troodon said:

I have changed my topic to include a header with a disclaimer.

Also the Tiourarén information provided was based on a published paper that paleontologists were involved in the collection.

Alright, thanks you for the update.

 

So basically Nothing more than cf. Megalosauridae OR Theropod indet.

 

And do you believe it is a handclaw of footclaw?